[Politics] Brexit

[Two Professors]

Of course.

The Times, May 17, page 8, col 1.

'In a development for the Leave campaign, Daniel Hannan, the leading pro-Brexit MEP, said that Britian should follow the example of Norway, Iceland and Switzerland and join the European Free Trade Association if there was a vote to leave on June 23. This would mean continuing to allow EU free movement of workers - one of the main arguments used by Brexit supporters for a vote to leave.'

So he didn't actually say anything at all about the free movement of of workers-it's just you assuming it if we happen to join EFTA after Independence Day.You Remainers are very good at half truths and assumptions.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

you forgot to answer
in this particular quote why was NATO not included.?its there in the first three words,why omit them?

I try to be polite in my posts and usually, but not always, I succeed. It is difficult in this case because I constructed a careful response covering the issue of why I felt it was reasonable not to include the reference to NATO in the quoted comment, providing a parallel situation to support my case. You disagree with it. Fine. But don't patronisingly accuse me of 'forgetting' to answer.

As it happens, I don't think mentioning the existence of NATO alongside the EU would have weakened the point being made other than by making the sentence longer - the published quote simply said that the EU had 'helped' preserve peace and it would be obvious to everyone who the other peace-preserving parties (NATO is but one of them) are.

You are seeing a conspiracy where no such thing exists.

 

[Maldini]

That's interesting. Goodness. You are telling me that your post - "Another **** who can't articulate a decent counter argument" - was not insulting because it was true. Just to clarify, are you saying that the poster was a ******* **** or just a ****? If the asterisks stand for what we think they stand for then your post is indeed a low-rent insult. But maybe they don't. Maybe you are calling HT a chap or a dude of something. Do tell.

You are all of the above now go away and play with someone else.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So he didn't actually say anything at all about the free movement of of workers-it's just you assuming it if we happen to join EFTA after Independence Day.You Remainers are very good at half truths and assumptions.

Try to leave personal generalisations out of it. You asked for the source and I gave it. There was no "assumption" on my part that the UK would happen to join EFTA after Brexit - I was simply reporting that Daniel Hannan had said it should. As The Times points out, joining EFTA would mean accepting free movement.

I feel happy about quoting The Times because it is, I believe, the most studiously neutral of all national newspapers. It is more neutral than the Mirror or the Guardian and it is vastly more neutral than the Express, Mail, Sun and Telegraph which the Outers love quoting.

 

[Boy Blue]

Politicians want to stay in as it's their future jobs just Blair and Milliband and massive pensions they'll receive. They couldn't give a shit about us mere mortals. We're just cannon fodder and pests.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

You are all of the above now go away and play with someone else.

Brilliant. I'm a " ****** **** " apparently. Great stuff from the man who was complaining about people making insulting comments. I shan't reciprocate.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Politicians want to stay in as it's their future jobs just Blair and Milliband and massive pensions they'll receive. They couldn't give a shit about us mere mortals. We're just cannon fodder and pests.

View attachment 74846

I'm not sure about your first sentence but I think you're saying that Blair and Miliband get massive pensions from the EU. Why would they get pensions from the EU?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

are you sure this is correct chap?
[MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION] and [MENTION=25549]5ways[/MENTION] have assured everyone on this thread we do indeed have control of our borders and can therefore set limits on how many EU citizens can enter(this whole freedom of movement thing is a myth)…….no one told the border guards though for some reason.
They both seem to know what they are talking about on this issue,im sure they cant be lying to everyone

Oh yes quite correct

Perhaps I can help you better understand some of the Remain supporters definitions.

Control of our borders means having no power to limit 450 + million people coming to live or work here but having the ability to look at a passport before waving them through.

EU democracy means unelected failed national politicians being appointed as commissioners proposing legislation and the UK having the same status as a US state or local council.

Sovereignty isn't actually recognised as a term unless used in conjunction with 'pooled' (see surrendered).

Increased Influence on the world stage means just one of 28 competing voices to be ignored as often as possible. (see Germany/France)

A fact means an opinion (often ill-informed) or a prediction based on numerous unknowable assumptions by an individual/organisation which agrees with their pov.

The Eurozone sometimes confused with the EU. Rarely mentioned, often ignored, will all turn out swimmingly in the end despite all evidence to the contrary.

Greek bailout A wonderful example of EU cooperation, harmony and togetherness. (See Circumvent democracy, Mass unemployment, civil unrest, suicide rates.)

More secure means letting European courts overrule/block decisions made by our Judges trying to deport terrorists (Also see 'control of our borders')

The United Kingdom a once significant former nation state that would be better off as a sub region of a federal Superstate.

Ever closer Union a term that is conveniently ignored despite endless examples of it happening every time an EU treaty is signed.

Brexit (see Armageddon) Otherwise known as Self governance. An alien wacky concept best left in the past.

 

[Boy Blue]

I'm not sure about your first sentence but I think you're saying that Blair and Miliband get massive pensions from the EU. Why would they get pensions from the EU?

Oh I don't know, maybe the same reason why this couple are so desperate to stay in the EU.

 

[DTES]

You Remainers are very good at half truths and assumptions.

Unlike Boris's complete non-truths on the Leave side of the debate?

 

[Hamilton]

Oh yes quite correct

Perhaps I can help you better understand some of the Remain supporters definitions.

Control of our borders means having no power to limit 450 + million people coming to live or work here but having the ability to look at a passport before waving them through.

This is not true. As we have not signed up Schengen we are allowed to check all passports and refuse entry.

Article 13 covering Leave & Enter covers this.

17A. Where a person is outside the United Kingdom but wishes to travel to the United Kingdom an Immigration Officer may give or refuse him leave to enter. An Immigration Officer may exercise these powers whether or not he is, himself, in the United Kingdom. However, an Immigration Officer is not obliged to consider an application for leave to enter from a person outside the United Kingdom.

However, because as an EU member we recognise the value of freedom of movement and freedom to work and trade, barring leave to enter is not applied to EU citizens. This is why they do not have to apply for a Visa to enter the UK.

EU democracy means unelected failed national politicians being appointed as commissioners proposing legislation and the UK having the same status as a US state or local council.

Sovereignty isn't actually recognised as a term unless used in conjunction with 'pooled' (see surrendered).

Increased Influence on the world stage means just one of 28 competing voices to be ignored as often as possible. (see Germany/France)

A fact means an opinion (often ill-informed) or a prediction based on numerous unknowable assumptions by an individual/organisation which agrees with their pov.

The Eurozone sometimes confused with the EU. Rarely mentioned, often ignored, will all turn out swimmingly in the end despite all evidence to the contrary.

Greek bailout A wonderful example of EU cooperation, harmony and togetherness. (See Circumvent democracy, Mass unemployment, civil unrest, suicide rates.)

More secure means letting European courts overrule/block decisions made by our Judges trying to deport terrorists (Also see 'control of our borders')

The United Kingdom a once significant former nation state that would be better off as a sub region of a federal Superstate.

Ever closer Union a term that is conveniently ignored despite endless examples of it happening every time an EU treaty is signed.

Brexit (see Armageddon) Otherwise known as Self governance. An alien wacky concept best left in the past.

Just corrected something for you there.

The rest of the comments in your post appear to be subjective, inaccurate or designed as humour in an attempt to curry favour with readers, so I can't really correct any of them, but I would say they are misleading.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Oh I don't know, maybe the same reason why this couple are so desperate to stay in the EU.

View attachment 74849

No, you've completely lost me there. Kinnock and Kinnock get EU pensions because they used to work for the EU. I was asking about Blair and Miliband.

(BTW, I have little time time for the Kinnocks and generally disapprove of people milking the public purse, in Brussels, Brighton or anywhere else.)

 

[Hamilton]

Unlike Boris's complete non-truths on the Leave side of the debate?

This is what astounds me about Boris. Right up until the last minute he was described as 'genuinely torn' between campaigning to Remain or Leave.

"Mr Johnson's sister, journalist Rachel Johnson, told Sky News that her brother was genuinely torn and was not milking his apparent indecision for political advantage."
http://news.sky.com/story/1645675/boris-announces-who-he-will-back-in-eu-campaign

So, here was a guy that could see merits in both arguments and was trying to establish which side to back.

Well forgive me, but you would never guess that to be the case now. He is almost trying to trump Farage with his anti-EU message. You can understand why Nige might be a bit miffed. Here's a bloke that has sat on his hands on the subject right up until a few weeks ago, and now he is hogging all the limelight.

It wouldn't be the case that Boris is just a career politician that likes the idea of an easy campaign ride? It wouldn't be that Boris sees a gap and knows that if he gambles big then this is his way to the leadership of the Tory party? Could it be that Boris is putting Boris first and not the UK? Nah. Impossible.

 

[Two Professors]

Try to leave personal generalisations out of it. You asked for the source and I gave it. There was no "assumption" on my part that the UK would happen to join EFTA after Brexit - I was simply reporting that Daniel Hannan had said it should. As The Times points out, joining EFTA would mean accepting free movement.

I feel happy about quoting The Times because it is, I believe, the most studiously neutral of all national newspapers. It is more neutral than the Mirror or the Guardian and it is vastly more neutral than the Express, Mail, Sun and Telegraph which the Outers love quoting.

So he didn't actually say anything at all about the free movement of workers?-repeat ad nauseam until an answer to this appears,or till get fed up.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So he didn't actually say anything at all about the free movement of workers?-repeat ad nauseam until an answer to this appears,or till get fed up.

Oh dear. According to a reliable newspaper he said he wanted something that would result in free movement. If someone says they want to become a pilot one has to assume that they are prepared to fly aeroplanes. If someone says they want to join EFTA one has to assume that they are prepared to accept free movement. It is an identical situation and the rest is just semantics.

Now. It is possible that The Times has got this story completely wrong and Hannan said nothing of the kind. Newspapers sometimes make mistakes. But it's a good newspaper that is usually right and that's what it is reporting. Until Hannan says something different I believe it.

 

[portslade seagull]

Oh dear. According to a reliable newspaper he said he wanted something that would result in free movement. If someone says they want to become a pilot one has to assume that they are prepared to fly aeroplanes. If someone says they want to join EFTA one has to assume that they are prepared to accept free movement. It is an identical situation and the rest is just semantics.

Now. It is possible that The Times has got this story completely wrong and Hannan said nothing of the kind. Newspapers sometimes make mistakes. But it's a good newspaper that is usually right and that's what it is reporting. Until Hannan says something different I believe it.

Because you want to believe it

 

[ROKERITE]

This is what astounds me about Boris. Right up until the last minute he was described as 'genuinely torn' between campaigning to Remain or Leave.

"Mr Johnson's sister, journalist Rachel Johnson, told Sky News that her brother was genuinely torn and was not milking his apparent indecision for political advantage."
http://news.sky.com/story/1645675/boris-announces-who-he-will-back-in-eu-campaign

So, here was a guy that could see merits in both arguments and was trying to establish which side to back.

Well forgive me, but you would never guess that to be the case now. He is almost trying to trump Farage with his anti-EU message. You can understand why Nige might be a bit miffed. Here's a bloke that has sat on his hands on the subject right up until a few weeks ago, and now he is hogging all the limelight.

It wouldn't be the case that Boris is just a career politician that likes the idea of an easy campaign ride? It wouldn't be that Boris sees a gap and knows that if he gambles big then this is his way to the leadership of the Tory party? Could it be that Boris is putting Boris first and not the UK? Nah. Impossible.

Cameron was telling us a year ago that of course we could exist outside The EU. Now, after his re-negotiations that achieved zilch, we'll be visited by all the plagues if we dare vote to be free of that corrupt monstrosity. A lot of people will have long memories when it comes to those who've put career ahead of country, most of the guilty being Tories.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Unlike Boris's complete non-truths on the Leave side of the debate?

Keep them coming. He's damaging the leave campaign on a number of levels.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Cameron was telling us a year ago that of course we could exist outside The EU. Now, after his re-negotiations that achieved zilch, we'll be visited by all the plagues if we dare vote to be free of that corrupt monstrosity. A lot of people will have long memories when it comes to those who've put career ahead of country, most of the guilty being Tories.

Zilch? They achieved a fair bit and this is coming from me.

 

[Boy Blue]

Bloody funny how all these politicians want us to stay in. They don't give a shit about us mugs.

Another toff who begs us to stay in so he can continue his journey on the gravy train at our poor expense.