[Politics] Brexit

[Lincoln Imp]

Sorry, why on earth would trade require free movement of labour?

The normal way to do it would be a normal trade agreement plus a correctly functioning merit-based immigration system.

International trade and secure borders is not a fantasy!

Once again, no one is saying that 'trade' would require free movement of labour. What would require it is free access to the single market. Perhaps this doesn't apply to you but there seems to be monumental confusion among Brexit campaigners about the difference between 'trade", which in one form or another anyone can do, and 'free access to the European single market', which requires free movement.

 

[Maldini]

If Remain win I will never again vote in a general election if I take into account that the party I vote for will not run my country.

How bizarre that I have no say.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

They add nothing.They are just replacing.How many times do I have to say.

Answer me this.If in 30 years migrants account for around 30/40% of the population of your town would you be happy?

Well another poster has explained, in careful and moderate tones, that migrant workers don't simply replace English workers. Every time he has done so you just shout "It's common sense" and ignore him.

 

[Maldini]

Well another poster has explained, in careful and moderate tones, that migrant workers don't simply replace English workers. Every time he has done so you just shout "It's common sense" and ignore him.

Explain to me if Joe Petrov beats Joe Smith to a job at Tescos how he's not replacing him?

 

[pastafarian]

By the way, between 300k - 400k people a year emigrate FROM the UK. Fortunately for us, a big chunk of those are retirees who end up in Spain, France and Italy - they don't work, and become burdens on the doctors and hospitals of our EU neighbours.

Oh come on,same old tired nonsense,your remarks are simply untrue

British citizens represent 43% of all emigrants,( hardly a big chunk who are retirees)
The majority (56%) of all people leaving the UK emigrate for work reasons
The top four destinations accounting for nearly 50% of emigration are Australia, USA, Spain and China
Where is Italy?



These are ONS statistics
http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/2015-05-21

You are simply spouting out rubbish in the hope if its written its true. Corbyn recently said "There are nearly three-quarters of a million British people living in Spain ". This was a complete lie, is this what you are basing your claim "a big chunk of those are retirees who end up in Spain, France and Italy"

 

[drew]

If Remain win I will never again vote in a general election if I take into account that the party I vote for will not run my country.

How bizarre that I have no say.

I voted at the last election and the party I voted for, and for that matter the parties that 64% voted for, don't run the country! How bizarre is that?

 

[larus]

I voted at the last election and the party I voted for, and for that matter the parties that 64% voted for, don't run the country! How bizarre is that?

How bizarre is it that labour can get more seats than the tories on a smaller percentage of the popular vote?

How bizarre that all the previous labour governments have also been elected base the largest minority?

 

[Maldini]

I voted at the last election and the party I voted for, and for that matter the parties that 64% voted for, don't run the country! How bizarre is that?

Go away with your constant sarcasm.It's pathetic.

 

[Maldini]

Oh come on,same old tired nonsense,your remarks are simply untrue

British citizens represent 43% of all emigrants,( hardly a big chunk who are retirees)
The majority (56%) of all people leaving the UK emigrate for work reasons
The top four destinations accounting for nearly 50% of emigration are Australia, USA, Spain and China
Where is Italy?

View attachment 74136

These are ONS statistics
http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/2015-05-21

You are simply spouting out rubbish in the hope if its written its true. Corbyn recently said "There are nearly three-quarters of a million British people living in Spain ". This was a complete lie, is this what you are basing your claim "a big chunk of those are retirees who end up in Spain, France and Italy"

I have never come across a British couple who have moved to Italy.I know only of some italians who lived here for years then retired back home.

The figures of 350K coming to the UK do not take into account the thousands who are working here as illegal immigrants. The goverment are hiding the real 'official' figure also/

 

[Maldini]

I'm still waiting for someone to give a decent answer to my question as to how our schools/hospitals/housing etc can cope with the increase in population.

The same question was asked on Question Time last night but went unanswered.

Interesting story also from the women asking the question.She stated that in her work place it now consisted of mainly eastern european workers.A british worker went off work with depression because he was working 10 hours a day with no-one speaking to him in english.

Britain 2016.Sad.

 

[Maldini]

Explain to me if Joe Petrov beats Joe Smith to a job at Tescos how he's not replacing him?

Anyone?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I'm still waiting for someone to give a decent answer to my question as to how our schools/hospitals/housing etc can cope with the increase in population.

The same question was asked on Question Time last night but went unanswered.

Interesting story also from the women asking the question.She stated that in her work place it now consisted of mainly eastern european workers.A british worker went off work with depression because he was working 10 hours a day with no-one speaking to him in english.

Britain 2016.Sad.

This question never gets answered especially from those in the Labour Party, because they damn well know we can't cope. However they would still rather promote mass immigration to win over new voters because they have lost millions of their old core voters like myself, because of their own immigration policies in the first place.

They couldn't give a stuff about over population or British people for that matter. Your right Britain 2016 is certainly becoming sad.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Anyone?

A previous poster has dealt with this (most recently in post 1606) but you refuse to accept it, as is your right.

You could have first-hand experience of small communities with proportionately large EU migrant populations but it doesn't seem likely. I am often in Lincolnshire and I have seen no evidence of '300 Poles arrive, 300 Englishmen made redundant' in the small towns to the east of the county. It doesn't work like that. The migrant agricultural workers generally come because they already know that there are jobs the local population don't want. Once here, their presence creates more local jobs away from agriculture - opportunities for tradesmen and retail workers increase and these are filled from the labour pool. The local economy expands. I accept that this is just anecdotal evidence but the situation is nothing like as straightforwardly gloomy as you claim, common sense or no common sense.

 

[Two Professors]

I see another of the corrupt EU pack has got his just desserts.Former Labour MEP for the South East Peter Skinner got four years for fiddling £480,000 on expenses.Paid his wife and parents for non-existent work over a number of years.Hopefully all the civil service sock puppets that have been spouting Remain propaganda on here will have gone home for the weekend.I can see why they are so scared of Brexit-they might actually have to work for a living instead of doing astrology for Osborne!

 

[Jim in the West]

Anyone?

There is actually some useful research around this phenomenon. Granted it has been carried out in the US, but it looks at the situation where Mexican and other Latin American immigrants potentially "steal" the jobs of US-born locals. The largest study demonstrated that overall workers in those fields potentially impacted by in-bound immigrant labour actually benefitted by slightly more than those in other industries - this is a quote from an article on the study: "Similarly, Rujuan Liu and Daniel Trefler’s analysis for the National Bureau of Economic Research suggests that US workers in occupations exposed to outsourcing — which were also industries that benefited from the ability to “inshore” work from abroad — were slightly less likely to be unemployed and earned 1.5 percent more thanks to the growth of their industry from 1996 to 2005."

However, the really good news is that the rest of the population benefits, too. This is because (a) these industries tend to be very low margin, and would probably fail if it weren't for cheaper immigrant labour. In our case, there's significant migrant labour in agriculture, which means our farmers can compete in world markets. Without low cost labour, a good proportion of this agricultural activity would be lost [effectively the jobs would be exported abroad]; and (b) the with lower wage costs, these businesses can keep their own costs down, meaning we all have a lower cost of living.

This is just straightforward economics. There will undoubtedly be a few Joe Smiths who lose out, but there will be many more who benefit.

 

[DTES]

I see another of the corrupt EU pack has got his just desserts.Former Labour MEP for the South East Peter Skinner got four years for fiddling £480,000 on expenses.Paid his wife and parents for non-existent work over a number of years.Hopefully all the civil service sock puppets that have been spouting Remain propaganda on here will have gone home for the weekend.I can see why they are so scared of Brexit-they might actually have to work for a living instead of doing astrology for Osborne!

Thank god no MPs in the Commons have ever been found fiddling expenses. Leaving the EU will definitely stamp out this kind of behaviour.

 

[Jim in the West]

Oh come on,same old tired nonsense,your remarks are simply untrue

British citizens represent 43% of all emigrants,( hardly a big chunk who are retirees)
The majority (56%) of all people leaving the UK emigrate for work reasons
The top four destinations accounting for nearly 50% of emigration are Australia, USA, Spain and China
Where is Italy?

You are simply spouting out rubbish in the hope if its written its true. Corbyn recently said "There are nearly three-quarters of a million British people living in Spain ". This was a complete lie, is this what you are basing your claim "a big chunk of those are retirees who end up in Spain, France and Italy"

There's quite a lot of data available on how many Brits live abroad. The Spanish estimate there are about 1m Brits living in Spain. The French census gives a figure of around 200k Brits living in France (around a third of whom are retired). Italy may be a small number at the moment, but it's growing. Anyway, the point is - at the same time as there are immigrants INTO the UK, there are also sizeable numbers of emigrants. It doesn't really matter where they're going - they ARE going!

 

[Maldini]

A previous poster has dealt with this (most recently in post 1606) but you refuse to accept it, as is your right.

You could have first-hand experience of small communities with proportionately large EU migrant populations but it doesn't seem likely. I am often in Lincolnshire and I have seen no evidence of '300 Poles arrive, 300 Englishmen made redundant' in the small towns to the east of the county. It doesn't work like that. The migrant agricultural workers generally come because they already know that there are jobs the local population don't want. Once here, their presence creates more local jobs away from agriculture - opportunities for tradesmen and retail workers increase and these are filled from the labour pool. The local economy expands. I accept that this is just anecdotal evidence but the situation is nothing like as straightforwardly gloomy as you claim, common sense or no common sense.

The previous poster made the claim that the goverment can afford to build this,build that because they are loaded I assume.That's hardly dealing with the question.He has no proof.That's like me saying the opposite that they can't afford to build this and that because they are broke without having proof.Wait a minute I do have proof.Cutback after cutback after cutback.Not enough spending on the NHS,schools,etc.Have I dealt with the question?

So you're saying there are no migrants in Lincolnshire?Interesting.

Yes agriculture.Let's get them to work on farms and nowhere else.Suits me.

 

[Maldini]

There is actually some useful research around this phenomenon. Granted it has been carried out in the US, but it looks at the situation where Mexican and other Latin American immigrants potentially "steal" the jobs of US-born locals. The largest study demonstrated that overall workers in those fields potentially impacted by in-bound immigrant labour actually benefitted by slightly more than those in other industries - this is a quote from an article on the study: "Similarly, Rujuan Liu and Daniel Trefler’s analysis for the National Bureau of Economic Research suggests that US workers in occupations exposed to outsourcing — which were also industries that benefited from the ability to “inshore” work from abroad — were slightly less likely to be unemployed and earned 1.5 percent more thanks to the growth of their industry from 1996 to 2005."

However, the really good news is that the rest of the population benefits, too. This is because (a) these industries tend to be very low margin, and would probably fail if it weren't for cheaper immigrant labour. In our case, there's significant migrant labour in agriculture, which means our farmers can compete in world markets. Without low cost labour, a good proportion of this agricultural activity would be lost [effectively the jobs would be exported abroad]; and (b) the with lower wage costs, these businesses can keep their own costs down, meaning we all have a lower cost of living.

This is just straightforward economics. There will undoubtedly be a few Joe Smiths who lose out, but there will be many more who benefit.

Agriculture is just one of many industries.The way I'm reading this is that say you have 50 farmers employing 500 migrants then if they didn't employ them and went bust,50 farmers would lose their livelihood(or just go and work for someone)and 500 migrants would go home.Sounds good to me.

As I said before I am not opposed to ALL migrants.That's just plain silly.We should do as other countries.The US,Canada and Australia for example and take on the people we need and not just everyone who wants to come.
I also think it's a shame that because we are getting so overrun with EU workers it is now harder for workers from other parts of the world to come here.
I would rather have a mix of aussies,canadians,yanks,south americans then just bland eastern europeans.

 

[Maldini]

There's quite a lot of data available on how many Brits live abroad. The Spanish estimate there are about 1m Brits living in Spain. The French census gives a figure of around 200k Brits living in France (around a third of whom are retired). Italy may be a small number at the moment, but it's growing. Anyway, the point is - at the same time as there are immigrants INTO the UK, there are also sizeable numbers of emigrants. It doesn't really matter where they're going - they ARE going!

Jim NO-ONE but retiring italians are going to Italy. Young italians are all coming here !

As for the rest,there are far more workers coming here than people going abroad as you already know.