[Politics] Brexit

[Thunder Bolt]

Oh come along TB let's not pretend you had any clue of the cost benefit analysis of EU membership pre 2016. Or had even heard of 'ever closer union', or could list/ care about one business suffering from EU regulations ..

I don’t need to pretend. I know we were in a free trade association (EFTA) in 1960, and wanted ever closer union in 1973. I voted Remain both times, in 74 and 2016.

We’ve already ‘ceded power’ via NATO, and CPTPP.
I was all for joining the euro, too.

 

[chickens]

And here lies a classic example of modern day online political "debate". Unless you agree with me I'll tell you to f***k off, or better still, attempt to belittle you with sarcasm.

What a shame.

To be fair it was @bazbha who made a post and then stopped engaging, which is what was being pointed out.

I agree that it is a shame that having set out their case for the breakup of the USA, they’ve not gone on to say more about the EU.

I’ve not lived in the US personally, but their legal system does seem to be set up as a predatory lawyer’s wet dream, so I take his argument as having been given in good faith.

Even @Wokeworrier’s beliefs are genuinely held, despite the obvious and immediate harm Brexit has caused the U.K.

What was obvious to most of those who voted Remain was that it’s not enough to vote against the EU, you need to know what you want to replace it. We didn’t, and still don’t. Liz Truss tried to make us the tax accountant’s answer to Ibiza, and proved that the markets will hold us to account even when the public can’t.

We left the EU of our own volition, and yet it seemed to come as a colossal surprise to the government that we immediately needed thousands more Civil Servants to do the work that had previously been carried out centrally by the EU. We had no meaningful trade deals arranged, and have been completely bent over on the trade deals we have signed, because our negotiators needed to be seen to have a ‘win’, whereas our trading partners didn’t do enough business with us to be hugely bothered.

@Wokeworrier has been asked multiple times for the benefits of Brexit, and the only one he ever came up with was that labour scarcity would push up wages. Well, firms struggling to recruit isn’t necessarily great for business, and wage increases still significantly lag inflation, so our workforce is still getting poorer and not more prosperous. His one benefit melts under scrutiny. Now when asked he says “given repeatedly earlier in the thread” (they aren’t - like Farage, he’s lying to you)

We are geographically in Europe, the countries we can trade competitively with are European. We had an incredible deal negotiated and we walked away from it. We’re mugs.

The ever closer union side of things (where @Wokeworrier frets most) seems to me to only be a concern if you believe that EU lawmakers are worse than our domestic lawmakers. I’d argue that MEPs and Europe’s style of parliament is more democratic than our own, and something we should move toward rather than away from. I accept others feel differently, but the two basket cases of the West at the moment are the U.K. and the US, I don’t think that’s coincidence. Our style of “democracy” is effectively a binary choice between two sides of the same coin and so easier to manipulate than more nuanced forms of democracy with more moving parts.

The EU is not the US, frankly it’s better. The shysters who took us out without a plan have faded into the distance with their moneybags full, and now our kids have to pick up the pieces. I suspect we’ll be back in (in some form) within my lifetime.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

To be fair it was @bazbha who made a post and then stopped engaging, which is what was being pointed out.

I agree that it is a shame that having set out their case for the breakup of the USA, they’ve not gone on to say more about the EU.

I’ve not lived in the US personally, but their legal system does seem to be set up as a predatory lawyer’s wet dream, so I take his argument as having been given in good faith.

Even @Wokeworrier’s beliefs are genuinely held, despite the obvious and immediate harm Brexit has caused the U.K.

What was obvious to most of those who voted Remain was that it’s not enough to vote against the EU, you need to know what you want to replace it. We didn’t, and still don’t. Liz Truss tried to make us the tax accountant’s answer to Ibiza, and proved that the markets will hold us to account even when the public can’t.

We left the EU of our own volition, and yet it seemed to came as a colossal surprise to the government that we immediately needed thousands more Civil Servants to do the work that had previously been carried out centrally by the EU. We had no meaningful trade deals arranged, and have been completely bent over on the trade deals we have signed, because our negotiators needed to be seen to have a ‘win’, whereas our trading partners didn’t do enough business with us to be hugely bothered.

@Wokeworrier has been asked multiple times for the benefits of Brexit, and the only one he ever came up with was that labour scarcity would push up wages. Well, firms struggling to recruit isn’t necessarily great for business, and wage increases still significantly lag inflation, so our workforce is still getting poorer and not more prosperous. His one benefit melts under scrutiny. Now when asked he says “given repeatedly earlier in the thread” (they aren’t - like Farage, he’s lying to you)

We are geographically in Europe, the countries we can trade competitively with are European. We had an incredible deal negotiated and we walked away from it. We’re mugs.

The ever closer union side of things (where @Wokeworrier frets most) seems to me to only be a concern if you believe that EU lawmakers are worse than our domestic lawmakers. I’d argue that MEPs and Europe’s style of parliament is more democratic than our own, and something we should move toward rather than away from. I accept others feel differently, but the two basket cases of the West at the moment are the U.K. and the US, I don’t think that’s coincidence. Our style of “democracy” is effectively a binary choice between two sides of the same coin and so easier to manipulate than more nuanced forms of democracy with more moving parts.

The EU is not the US, frankly it’s better. The shysters who took us out without a plan have faded into the distance with their moneybags full, and now our kids have to pick up the pieces. I suspect we’ll be back in (in some form) within my lifetime.

Well summed up.

 

[Lever]

I.say.your.so.clever.

did.you.mean.'you're'.rather.than.'your'?

 

[shingle]

FFS guys and gal, have a day off, it's FA Cup semi final day in case you hadn't noticed.

 

[Lever]

To be fair it was @bazbha who made a post and then stopped engaging, which is what was being pointed out.

I agree that it is a shame that having set out their case for the breakup of the USA, they’ve not gone on to say more about the EU.

I’ve not lived in the US personally, but their legal system does seem to be set up as a predatory lawyer’s wet dream, so I take his argument as having been given in good faith.

Even @Wokeworrier’s beliefs are genuinely held, despite the obvious and immediate harm Brexit has caused the U.K.

What was obvious to most of those who voted Remain was that it’s not enough to vote against the EU, you need to know what you want to replace it. We didn’t, and still don’t. Liz Truss tried to make us the tax accountant’s answer to Ibiza, and proved that the markets will hold us to account even when the public can’t.

We left the EU of our own volition, and yet it seemed to came as a colossal surprise to the government that we immediately needed thousands more Civil Servants to do the work that had previously been carried out centrally by the EU. We had no meaningful trade deals arranged, and have been completely bent over on the trade deals we have signed, because our negotiators needed to be seen to have a ‘win’, whereas our trading partners didn’t do enough business with us to be hugely bothered.

@Wokeworrier has been asked multiple times for the benefits of Brexit, and the only one he ever came up with was that labour scarcity would push up wages. Well, firms struggling to recruit isn’t necessarily great for business, and wage increases still significantly lag inflation, so our workforce is still getting poorer and not more prosperous. His one benefit melts under scrutiny. Now when asked he says “given repeatedly earlier in the thread” (they aren’t - like Farage, he’s lying to you)

We are geographically in Europe, the countries we can trade competitively with are European. We had an incredible deal negotiated and we walked away from it. We’re mugs.

The ever closer union side of things (where @Wokeworrier frets most) seems to me to only be a concern if you believe that EU lawmakers are worse than our domestic lawmakers. I’d argue that MEPs and Europe’s style of parliament is more democratic than our own, and something we should move toward rather than away from. I accept others feel differently, but the two basket cases of the West at the moment are the U.K. and the US, I don’t think that’s coincidence. Our style of “democracy” is effectively a binary choice between two sides of the same coin and so easier to manipulate than more nuanced forms of democracy with more moving parts.

The EU is not the US, frankly it’s better. The shysters who took us out without a plan have faded into the distance with their moneybags full, and now our kids have to pick up the pieces. I suspect we’ll be back in (in some form) within my lifetime.

This is a fair and honest summary and will of course be ignored by those who do not want or simply refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Lever]

FFS guys and gal, have a day off, it's FA Cup semi final day in case you hadn't noticed.

8 hours away..... and that is one thing that does unite us.

 

[birthofanorange]

You didn't answer the question..

Have a banana.
Anyway, I'm off to enjoy our humbling of the mighty Red Devils, and the crap that is Brexit will still be here post-match.
And longer.
Sadly.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don’t need to pretend. I know we were in a free trade association (EFTA) in 1960, and wanted ever closer union in 1973. I voted Remain both times, in 74 and 2016.

We’ve already ‘ceded power’ via NATO, and CPTPP.
I was all for joining the euro, too.

Yes, but if only you'd served your country you would of (etc., etc.)

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

To be fair it was @bazbha who made a post and then stopped engaging, which is what was being pointed out.

I agree that it is a shame that having set out their case for the breakup of the USA, they’ve not gone on to say more about the EU.

I’ve not lived in the US personally, but their legal system does seem to be set up as a predatory lawyer’s wet dream, so I take his argument as having been given in good faith.

Even @Wokeworrier’s beliefs are genuinely held, despite the obvious and immediate harm Brexit has caused the U.K.

What was obvious to most of those who voted Remain was that it’s not enough to vote against the EU, you need to know what you want to replace it. We didn’t, and still don’t. Liz Truss tried to make us the tax accountant’s answer to Ibiza, and proved that the markets will hold us to account even when the public can’t.

We left the EU of our own volition, and yet it seemed to come as a colossal surprise to the government that we immediately needed thousands more Civil Servants to do the work that had previously been carried out centrally by the EU. We had no meaningful trade deals arranged, and have been completely bent over on the trade deals we have signed, because our negotiators needed to be seen to have a ‘win’, whereas our trading partners didn’t do enough business with us to be hugely bothered.

@Wokeworrier has been asked multiple times for the benefits of Brexit, and the only one he ever came up with was that labour scarcity would push up wages. Well, firms struggling to recruit isn’t necessarily great for business, and wage increases still significantly lag inflation, so our workforce is still getting poorer and not more prosperous. His one benefit melts under scrutiny. Now when asked he says “given repeatedly earlier in the thread” (they aren’t - like Farage, he’s lying to you)

We are geographically in Europe, the countries we can trade competitively with are European. We had an incredible deal negotiated and we walked away from it. We’re mugs.

The ever closer union side of things (where @Wokeworrier frets most) seems to me to only be a concern if you believe that EU lawmakers are worse than our domestic lawmakers. I’d argue that MEPs and Europe’s style of parliament is more democratic than our own, and something we should move toward rather than away from. I accept others feel differently, but the two basket cases of the West at the moment are the U.K. and the US, I don’t think that’s coincidence. Our style of “democracy” is effectively a binary choice between two sides of the same coin and so easier to manipulate than more nuanced forms of democracy with more moving parts.

The EU is not the US, frankly it’s better. The shysters who took us out without a plan have faded into the distance with their moneybags full, and now our kids have to pick up the pieces. I suspect we’ll be back in (in some form) within my lifetime.

When you consider who wokewarrior is (previous user name), and how (in his previous incarnation) he justified Brexit before the vote (stopping legal immigration, and some vague waffling about stopping the degeneration of the british national character by foreignness) you will be waiting a long time for anything coherent. If all you have in your mind is racism, unless you are a complete fool you'll keep your true opinion to yourself. Innit.

 

[WATFORD zero]

When you consider who wokewarrior is (previous user name), and how (in his previous incarnation) he justified Brexit before the vote (stopping legal immigration, and some vague waffling about stopping the degeneration of the british national character by foreignness) you will be waiting a long time for anything coherent. If all you have in your mind is racism, unless you are a complete fool you'll keep your true opinion to yourself. Innit.

Now you mention it, I haven't seen any posts from @Wokeworrier about the whole Wembley thing

In fact, I haven't seen any post from him related to Albion in any way during what has been our greatest season ever

Now you've highlighted him, I've just realised I've never seen him or his other accounts post anything about the Albion ever. I can't imagine why that may be

Maybe I should apologise for taking this thread off topic and onto Brighton on a Brighton fans message board

 

[chickens]

When you consider who wokewarrior is (previous user name), and how (in his previous incarnation) he justified Brexit before the vote (stopping legal immigration, and some vague waffling about stopping the degeneration of the british national character by foreignness) you will be waiting a long time for anything coherent. If all you have in your mind is racism, unless you are a complete fool you'll keep your true opinion to yourself. Innit.

It would be disappointing if wokeworrier’s motivation was racism. My family have developed a habit over the years of settling happily with partners who were born outside the U.K. The idea of some kind of mythical “Anglo-Saxon” purity is a nonsense to anyone who’s studied our history and is aware of the various forces that have swept across it. We have always been mongrels.

If wokeworrier’s concern is to try and get Britain bred for a bloodline like some kind of pedigree dog, then it is pure nonsense. We drift quickly into madness like the “Aryan ideal” when we head down that road.

Besides which, the missing European staff that have left us in the care and medical sectors are largely being replaced by staff from India, and to a lesser extent Pakistan, so Brexit has massively backfired for the racists, the staff aren’t here, they have to come from somewhere.

However, if wokeworrier wants to stop immigration, it can be done. He would need to be championing political parties advocating substantial tax increases that can subsidise couples to have lots of children and fund their healthcare, housing and an excellent education to allow them to become doctors.

The costs would be ongoing, and there would no tangible benefit at all for the first 18-25 years. After that point however, we could substantially reduce, if not eliminate, economic migration. It’s a really expensive way to run a country, but with substantially higher taxes sustained across generations, possible.

For myself, a bit of fresh blood stops us going stale, and it’s far more effective to judge people on their actions than their physical characteristics or ethnic origin.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It would be disappointing if wokeworrier’s motivation was racism. My family have developed a habit over the years of settling happily with partners who were born outside the U.K. The idea of some kind of mythical “Anglo-Saxon” purity is a nonsense to anyone who’s studied our history and is aware of the various forces that have swept across it. We have always been mongrels.

If wokeworrier’s concern is to try and get Britain bred for a bloodline like some kind of pedigree dog, then it is pure nonsense. We drift quickly into madness like the “Aryan ideal” when we head down that road.

Besides which, the missing European staff that have left us in the care and medical sectors are largely being replaced by staff from India, and to a lesser extent Pakistan, so Brexit has massively backfired for the racists, the staff aren’t here, they have to come from somewhere.

However, if wokeworrier wants to stop immigration, it can be done. He would need to be championing political parties advocating substantial tax increases that can subsidise couples to have lots of children and fund their healthcare, housing and an excellent education to allow them to become doctors.

The costs would be ongoing, and there would no tangible benefit at all for the first 18-25 years. After that point however, we could substantially reduce, if not eliminate, economic migration. It’s a really expensive way to run a country, but with substantially higher taxes sustained across generations, possible.

For myself, a bit of fresh blood stops us going stale, and it’s far more effective to judge people on their actions than their physical characteristics or ethnic origin.

Precisely.

Rather than being a strong advocate of racism I'd be more inclined to infer him as a weak practitioner of thinking things through.

We have all been there.

However, few of us have made not thinking things through our leitmotif. And the flag we chose to fly. On a football forum.

That would be just.....silly

 

[Lever]

Retired Civil Servant explains how low the current Government has sunk.... and the immense damage caused....

 

[A1X]

 

[WATFORD zero]

I think his plan to lose the referendum and then 're-unite' the Tory party under his leadership within the EU was fairly well known way before the referendum with the two pro and anti newspaper articles etc, and he certainly didn't want to inherit Brexit, who would ? It was why he stood down and let May become PM after the referendum. It has certainly been pointed out on this thread numerous times.

But at the end of the day, he achieved the position he wanted, even if it took three votes and the country being completely f***ed over and taking decades to recover. Johnson's career was always very obviously the most important thing that people voted for and at least that worked out well

 

[Lever]

...and if you have no plan then nothing can go wrong, can it.....

‘We’ve got no plan ... Holy crap’: What Boris said after Brexit vote

By the time Boris Johnson graduated from Balliol College, Oxford, at the age of 23, his irrepressible character had been largely forged, a character that would

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[WATFORD zero]

...and if you have no plan then nothing can go wrong, can it.....

http://[URL][URL]https://www.thetim...b?shareToken=85250f55bcc589d916b4f5fe49f3b391

[/URL][/URL]

But shirley that can't be right, because if there was no plan, how on earth would people know what they were voting for

 

[BBassic]

Nothing more than a bunch of rich children playing with the country as if it were a particularly amusing rattle.