[Politics] Brexit

[rogersix]

Ah the old Brexiters trump card of holding up Australia and USA as an example.
Have a think about it and see if you come up with any answers why the channel crossing to France might be slightly different.

Oooh, planes! Is it something to do with planes?

 

[cunning fergus]

This is a question for the Brexiteers.

Clearly, none of you have changed your minds on Brexit, which I wouldn't have expected. If you are still on this thread, resolutely defending Brexit, then you won't have changed your minds.

But after all the information that has been put to you on the chaos at Dover, seeing news items on the huge queues approaching Dover, and finally, travel expert Simon Calder taking timings at Dover port, and - absolutely spelling it out to you - are any of you prepared to move just a little and acknowledge that the Brexit changes may, possibly, be having a slight effect?

I was in Portugal recently, no drama straight through egates at Faro no passport stamp, some friends went through Sunday no drama but they did get passports stamped. It appears then Portugal has taken a pragmatic view on how to manage tourist flow. Good for them. I understand Malta have taken a similar approach. Caveat emptor……

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Certainly I didn't expect the EU to be so aggressive in defending the new rights that Brexit has given them. for example, with this dover thing, I don't see any reason why they need to be quite so slavish to the rules. The main effect of the new rules is that Britons can only spend 90 days in the EU on holiday - but is this particular issue important enough that they need all this rigmarole? How many people do they hope to stop from having 4 month holidays to make it worthwhile?

Similarly, the free trade issue. To me, but then I am a free trader, I thought it obvious that the EU would want free trade as being mutually beneficial. They don't - they want free trade with certain advantages. Teresa May was hopelessly incompetent on that negotiation, especially with her utter disregard for the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland. I can't work out whether Johnson salvaged something from the wreckage, or whether he did no good at all. But the current system is a shambles and we might as well withdraw altogether and trade under WTO rules rather than remain partly in thrall to the EU. I've never been convinced, anyway, that our huge balance of trade deficit with the EU is a good thing to be retained at all costs.

Point of order. The EU don't have any new rights under Brexit. French are not 'insisting' on passport stamps. The same laws have applied for many years, but Brexit has removed us from those rights and so we are now treated as a third country. It was Freedom of Movement, and applied to us as well, and by leaving, we have lost that freedom.

The exact legislation is EU Law (https://legislation.gov.uk/eur/2016/399/body) requires third-country nationals to have 'thorough checks' and (Article 11) to have their passport stamped.

Can I put it simply?

We left the golf club and stopped paying subs. Now we don't have access to the clubhouse or the greens. We can go as guests but have to be checked in as guests, and can only stay a limited time as guests.

 

[dsr-burnley]

If your first paragraph is a wind-up, then you've got a thumbs up from me!

But in case it isn't, freedom of movement has ceased both ways. Why did you vote for taking back control of our borders, but are then indignant when you discover the EU already does the same thing?
Isn't that your fault for not realising it? Or is it someone else's fault?

Here is a list of checks the French border control now have to do, as well as stamping each passport:

(taken from https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/62294901)

checking the identity page
checking the traveller hasn't been to the EU for more than 90 days in the last 180 days
checking if you have at least 3 months left on your passport
checking that your passport is issued less than 10 years before the date you enter the country
checking the traveller has a return ticket
checking proof of insurance for your trip
asking whether the traveller has enough money to stay
Checking each person can take up to a minute, rather than a few seconds, transport expert Simon Calder told BBC Breakfast.

Your second paragraph is for another discussion. Let's stay focused on the chaos at Dover.

Edit - I gave you a thumbs up for answering. Thank you.

Why shouldn't I be indignant about long delays because the French customs posts aren't working efficiently?

The USA has control of its borders, and no-one disputes that they should. But I was still indignant about having to queue for 4 hours at Los Angeles to get off the cruise ship (and staying on board wasn't an option, they made everyone get off) because the customs officers were being stroppy gets.

Incidentally, I have twice entered France from outside the Schengen area without any of this kerfuffle about return tickets and cash in hand. Once from Monaco, which they choose for convenience to treat as if it was Schengen, and once in St Maarten/St Martin, which was border-free presumably for the same reason. If they are asking all these questions it's not because it's strictly necessary under international or domestic law, it's because for whatever reason they have chosen to as a matter of policy.

 

[cunning fergus]

This has been explained already. German car makers want our money but it won't be at the expense of the integrity of the single market. German car manufacturers make up a microscopic figure compared to the overall EC economy. Do keep up.

How they must both wish they are able to slash bureaucracy so that untreated shit can now legally flow down their rivers. And once again you prove your complete lack of self awareness calling the French "economically retarded". Have you seen what has happened to our export figures in the past 3 or 4 years? I'm sure they'll gladly take economic lectures from a simpleton supporting that.

The evidence for Germany is that it is one of the poorer adherents to the demands of the single market….

https://single-market-scoreboard.ec.europa.eu/governance-tools/infringements_en

What a racket eh?

Yeah the French, economic powerhouse and glorious history innit……bonnet du douche Rodney.

 

[Badger Boy]

This deperate attempt to claim this situation is not related to Brexit is embarrassing for anyone trying to make that argument. If you REALLY cannot understand the connection or genuinely don't think the two are related, you are quite simply wrong. That's all there is to it, you are wrong. You voted for this chaos.

Maybe the money thrown at Rwanda for a policy which will never be implemented could have been spent uplifting the port of Calais? Hiring more employees or improving the infrastructure of the port, etc.

 

[RandyWanger]

[tweet]1551464079608483840[/tweet]

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Certainly I didn't expect the EU to be so aggressive in defending the new rights that Brexit has given them. for example, with this dover thing, I don't see any reason why they need to be quite so slavish to the rules. The main effect of the new rules is that Britons can only spend 90 days in the EU on holiday - but is this particular issue important enough that they need all this rigmarole? How many people do they hope to stop from having 4 month holidays to make it worthwhile?

You seem to have completely forgotten there is also a customs border.

 

[BBassic]

Imagine if Ed Miliband had been in charge, eh? Am I right? Eh? EH?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Similarly, the free trade issue. To me, but then I am a free trader, I thought it obvious that the EU would want free trade as being mutually beneficial. They don't - they want free trade with certain advantages.

Jesus wept. You have literally no idea how trading blocks and trade agreements work do you? Were you seriously expecting the EU to allow you have all the benefits of the EEA without a single trade-off? They are not charities.

 

[pb21]

Imagine if Ed Miliband had been in charge, eh? Am I right? Eh? EH?

Ah yes, chaos with Ed Miliband, my favourite tweet.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Why shouldn't I be indignant about long delays because the French customs posts aren't working efficiently?

Because you voted for a decision and government that negotiated on our behalf a deal which put a foreign country's officers on our side of the border to undertake checks at our busiest port because they knew it was going to be chaos. Taking back control = relying on a foreign state's efficiency on our soil.

Project Fear as it was called actually in retrospect was largely underestimating the impact we would see. We're taking back control by having the French on our side of the border. Honestly, at their height Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn couldn't have written funnier.

 

[dsr-burnley]

You have literally no idea how trading blocks and trade agreements work do you? Were you seriously expecting the EU to allow you have all the benefits of the EEA without a single trade-off? They are not charities.

No, of course not, and I think from your post that I have a better understanding of trade agreements than you do. There has never been a free trade agreement where only one side gets the free trade and the other side gets no benefit at all. the idea of a free trade agreement is that both parties get free access to each others' markets and both parties benefit as a result. I would have thought this was do-able, with the EU as well as with other countries.

 

[Jim in the West]

Certainly I didn't expect the EU to be so aggressive in defending the new rights that Brexit has given them. for example, with this dover thing, I don't see any reason why they need to be quite so slavish to the rules. The main effect of the new rules is that Britons can only spend 90 days in the EU on holiday - but is this particular issue important enough that they need all this rigmarole? How many people do they hope to stop from having 4 month holidays to make it worthwhile?

Similarly, the free trade issue. To me, but then I am a free trader, I thought it obvious that the EU would want free trade as being mutually beneficial. They don't - they want free trade with certain advantages. Teresa May was hopelessly incompetent on that negotiation, especially with her utter disregard for the Good Friday agreement in Northern Ireland. I can't work out whether Johnson salvaged something from the wreckage, or whether he did no good at all. But the current system is a shambles and we might as well withdraw altogether and trade under WTO rules rather than remain partly in thrall to the EU. I've never been convinced, anyway, that our huge balance of trade deficit with the EU is a good thing to be retained at all costs.

Doh!! It's not just Britons - it's anyone outside the EU!! You seem to have completely forgotten that you (I assume) willingly voted to come out of the club, and therefore be treated the same way as all the other countries who are outside the club. The French aren't treating us any differently to how they treat (for example) US citizens, or Canadians, or Serbians...

And regarding free trade, we negotiated a free trade deal with the EU. We are the only country in the world that has a deal with the EU that is completely tariff-free. But here's the thing - if we want to trade with the EU, then we need to adhere to their rules. So exporters need to make sure their goods meet EU standards. It's not "being in thrall" to the EU, it's just normal logical trade rules. It works exactly the same for any country that wants to export to the UK - they have to abide by our rules. The problem many UK businesses now have is that if they want to continue to supply both the EU and UK markets, they need to adhere to two sets of rules, as the UK government is gradually introducing its own rules. As the FT reported yesterday, the UK chemical industry will have to absorb an additional £2bn cost and a huge amount of additional bureaucracy in order to comply with both EU and UK rules. Brexit is a massive waste of time, energy, money....it is making it more and more difficult for our citizens to travel and for our businesses to trade. The concept of "Global Britain" is so ludicrous I don't know whether to laugh or cry!

Trading under WTO rules doesn't solve anything....it'll just make things much, much worse, as we won't have a zero-tariff deal with the EU.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Why shouldn't I be indignant about long delays because the French customs posts aren't working efficiently?

The USA has control of its borders, and no-one disputes that they should. But I was still indignant about having to queue for 4 hours at Los Angeles to get off the cruise ship (and staying on board wasn't an option, they made everyone get off) because the customs officers were being stroppy gets.

Incidentally, I have twice entered France from outside the Schengen area without any of this kerfuffle about return tickets and cash in hand. Once from Monaco, which they choose for convenience to treat as if it was Schengen, and once in St Maarten/St Martin, which was border-free presumably for the same reason. If they are asking all these questions it's not because it's strictly necessary under international or domestic law, it's because for whatever reason they have chosen to as a matter of policy.

Monaco isn't in the EU but does have a relationship with the EU, by sending an Ambassador to Brussels. Therefore not a valid arguement.

ONE DAY, just one day, the French were late because of an accident, and you are blaming them for every delay. Don't you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

The British government rejected a proposal to double the passport booths at Dover. Whose fault was that? The Transport Secretary, Grayling?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...uble-passport-booths-at-dover-in-2020-330342/

 

[Eric the meek]

I was in Portugal recently, no drama straight through egates at Faro no passport stamp, some friends went through Sunday no drama but they did get passports stamped. It appears then Portugal has taken a pragmatic view on how to manage tourist flow. Good for them. I understand Malta have taken a similar approach. Caveat emptor……

What was the food like?

I had two slices of toast with marmite for breakfast. This is also completely irrelevant to the chaos at Dover.

You ignored the subject of the thread, made precisely no attempt whatsoever to answer my question, and seem to think that any Brexit effect would be uniform across the whole EU, and because things are working at Faro airport, then that means the chaos at Dover can't be Brexit, and it must be the French being slow, awkward or whatever. Non sequitur.

Brexiteers, seriously, you need to lose the insane level of whataboutery. Accounts of your experiences of your latest odyssey to some place other than Dover are just not relevant.

 

[BBassic]

Leave voters were left reeling this morning after learning that France had somehow managed to secure their own borders whilst still being part of the European Union.

https://newsthump.com/2022/07/25/br...ol-of-their-own-border-despite-being-in-eu-2/

One thing that can be said for Brexit / the last 12 (?) years of Tory government generally: we've gotten a lot of good satire out of it.

 

[Bold Seagull]

No, of course not, and I think from your post that I have a better understanding of trade agreements than you do. There has never been a free trade agreement where only one side gets the free trade and the other side gets no benefit at all. the idea of a free trade agreement is that both parties get free access to each others' markets and both parties benefit as a result. I would have thought this was do-able, with the EU as well as with other countries.

We're in a trade agreement with the EU that this government negotiated and came into force 01 May 2021. You appear to be suggesting we don't have an agreement in place? You cannot seriously be claiming to have a better understanding than someone else unless I have grossly misread your post?

https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/relations-non-eu-countries/relations-united-kingdom/eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreement_en

 

[dsr-burnley]

Monaco isn't in the EU but does have a relationship with the EU, by sending an Ambassador to Brussels. Therefore not a valid arguement.

ONE DAY, just one day, the French were late because of an accident, and you are blaming them for every delay. Don't you realise how ridiculous that sounds?

The British government rejected a proposal to double the passport booths at Dover. Whose fault was that? The Transport Secretary, Grayling?

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/p...uble-passport-booths-at-dover-in-2020-330342/

If the French customs are unable to cope with the number of tourists visiting France, then the only two ways to solve it are by increasing the productivity of the customs officers or by reducing the numbers of tourists.

And stop banging on about the rejection of a plan to build extra booths in 2020. Why is that relevant? The booths have been built - how would it have helped to build them two years ago instead of this year?

 

[dsr-burnley]

We're in a trade agreement with the EU that this government negotiated and came into force 01 May 2021. You appear to be suggesting we don't have an agreement in place? You cannot seriously be claiming to have a better understanding than someone else unless I have grossly misread your post?

https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/relations-non-eu-countries/relations-united-kingdom/eu-uk-trade-and-cooperation-agreement_en

It's an agreement, not a free trade agreement, with lots of conditions in place that work against the UK. If it was free trade, then what's the point of all these checks across the Irish Sea? Why is the EU so bothered about the possibility of goods getting from England to Ireland if there's free trade?