[Politics] Brexit

[Deleted member 37369]

May I please remind everybody that Mouldy Boots, in future is known as NSCs personal piece of Faeces.


"Just as thick and twice as Stodgy".

And he adores being de-meaned...it,s his purpose in life.

I don't necessarily agree with some of Mouldy Boots posts ... but your last 3/4 posts )I've lost count) are an absolute disgrace and should be nowhere near NSC. You are trolling ... plain and simple!

 

[Eric the meek]

There are some posts which are a bit 'Brexiteer bashing' but they seem to come generally as a response to someone posting 'It's nothing to do with Brexit' and 'we need to move on' with absolutely no evidence or facts to support that case, other than their opinion (valid or invalid, as explained above). This was certainly the case of last night's fun and games. Because I'm sure you are aware that in order to 'move on' we need the Government to Get Brexit Done by implementing Import controls, their preferred Northern Ireland Protocol etc without causing further economic harm and cost of living increases or breaking International law.

I'm sure you know that I wouldn't condone 'Brexiteer bashing' in any manner but maybe if someone put forward a case of 'It's nothing to do with Brexit' with some supporting evidence, the resulting discussion may be different

To be fair, he did quote the figure of 2 seconds per passport, although it wasn't verified or validated.

Compare this with the timings observed by Simon Calder, (45 seconds for two people, 90 seconds for four) and the 2 years worth of testing, carried out in conjunction with the French authorities, which were even longer.

 

[Lever]

Sorry, things don't just get moved to the Bear Pit so that you don't have to read of the appalling consequences of the Brexit you voted for.

The only thing that got out of hand was the brief name-calling towards Mouldy Boots.

Thanks for this. I am really not surprised that so many Brexit voters would rather not carry on witnessing the fall out of the Referendum, even though I do accept either they had some spurious self interest reason for wanting to leave or they were horribly deceived by mendacious right wing MPs effectively and deliberately mixing 'Leave the EU' with patriotism......

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I don't necessarily agree with some of Mouldy Boots posts ... but your last 3/4 posts )I've lost count) are an absolute disgrace and should be nowhere near NSC. You are trolling ... plain and simple!

Very much this. [MENTION=4790]cjd[/MENTION] has been on my case a few times......although his comments were as much bizarre as they were a disgrace. Amongst numerous other comments he kept asking about 'my kids'. Odd.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's good to see someone has finally picked up Ppf's baton (and crayons) but it took a while to choose which account should step forward

 

[mikeyjh]

To be fair, he did quote the figure of 2 seconds per passport, although it wasn't verified or validated.

Compare this with the timings observed by Simon Calder, (45 seconds for two people, 90 seconds for four) and the 2 years worth of testing, carried out in conjunction with the French authorities, which were even longer.

Yep, the testing showed 70 seconds per person - 10,000 cars, say average 2 people in each (that's a very conservative estimate), that's many many hours of process, unfortunately.

 

[Deleted member 37369]

Very much this. [MENTION=4790]cjd[/MENTION] has been on my case a few times......although his comments were as much bizarre as they were a disgrace. Amongst numerous other comments he kept asking about 'my kids'. Odd.

That's very odd !! We can disagree with each other - but comments like cjd's tell me more about the person saying them than the person they're aiming them at!

 

[WATFORD zero]

To be fair, he did quote the figure of 2 seconds per passport, although it wasn't verified or validated.

Compare this with the timings observed by Simon Calder, (45 seconds for two people, 90 seconds for four) and the 2 years worth of testing, carried out in conjunction with the French authorities, which were even longer.

Now this is much better. A discussion, with evidence about the actual topic of the thread.

[MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] can now come back and put the case for his 2 seconds against your 45 seconds and [MENTION=12706]mikeyjh[/MENTION]'s 70 seconds. Grown up factual discussion is exactly what myself and WS were both hoping for

 

[dsr-burnley]

To be fair, he did quote the figure of 2 seconds per passport, although it wasn't verified or validated.

Compare this with the timings observed by Simon Calder, (45 seconds for two people, 90 seconds for four) and the 2 years worth of testing, carried out in conjunction with the French authorities, which were even longer.

How long did passport checks take before Brexit? I think the 45 seconds quoted is the total time, not the specific extra tme for stamping the passport. How long did it used to take for a car to roll up to the passport control, have the 2 occupants' passports checked, and drive away to be replaced by the next?

 

[dsr-burnley]

After all the damage Brexit has caused to the UK, to businesses, to many individuals and to partnerships and families, people are angry. Yes it was a vote, but it was narrow and too narrow for such a potentially seismic issue. In many other areas, anything remotely close to such a significant change requires a super-majority. The idea the nation is simply going to forget and pull together upon a new PM is even more daft than your decision to vote for Boris. This is going to rumble on for many years.

If you were talking about a second vote, that would be fair enough. The same would apply if Scotland want a second referendum or if there was a referendum on rejoining the EU. But this was the first vote on EU membership, and as such the idea that we should remain a member without even a simple majority is not on.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Now this is much better. A discussion, with evidence about the actual topic of the thread.

[MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] can now come back and put the case for his 2 seconds against your 45 seconds and [MENTION=12706]mikeyjh[/MENTION]'s 70 seconds. Grown up factual discussion is exactly what myself and WS were both hoping for

I can only go on my own experience on Newhaven-Dieppe. I've done the crossing three times this year and more times than I count over the last 15+ years. The only change I've seen since Brexit is that my passport is stamped - the time to pass French border control hasn't increased at all. Quick check of each passport and a stamp put into each passport - it really takes no longer than the last 15+ years.

I'll also point out, again, that even the French have said their staff got delayed for working at Dover. Strange, if this is a Brexit problem, that ports such as Newhaven, Portsmouth etc don't have these problems. I'll ask again, what is your experience of travelling across the channel before Brexit v after Brexit ?

Ohh - [MENTION=41643]Eric the meek[/MENTION] - no I wasn't referring to your posts around Brexiteer bashing.

 

[CliveWalkerWingWizard]

I can only go on my own experience on Newhaven-Dieppe. I've done the crossing three times this year and more times than I count over the last 15+ years. The only change I've seen since Brexit is that my passport is stamped - the time to pass French border control hasn't increased at all. Quick check of each passport and a stamp put into each passport - it really takes no longer than the last 15+ years.

I'll also point out, again, that even the French have said their staff got delayed for working at Dover. Strange, if this is a Brexit problem, that ports such as Newhaven, Portsmouth etc don't have these problems. I'll ask again, what is your experience of travelling across the channel before Brexit v after Brexit ?

Ohh - [MENTION=41643]Eric the meek[/MENTION] - no I wasn't referring to your posts around Brexiteer bashing.

New haven and Portsmouth have a much smaller volume and less sailings, so a short delay for each passenger does not lead to congestion.

 

[Eric the meek]

How long did passport checks take before Brexit? I think the 45 seconds quoted is the total time, not the specific extra tme for stamping the passport. How long did it used to take for a car to roll up to the passport control, have the 2 occupants' passports checked, and drive away to be replaced by the next?

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18485/pdf/

This details 2 years of testing prior to the Brexit changes.

The bit that answers your question, is here:

'Currently, French Authority passport controls UK-France are conducted
infrequently, often based on intelligence and are normally cursory. They have
only rarely impacted traffic flow.'

 

[Simster]

If you were talking about a second vote, that would be fair enough. The same would apply if Scotland want a second referendum or if there was a referendum on rejoining the EU. But this was the first vote on EU membership, and as such the idea that we should remain a member without even a simple majority is not on.

ANY referendum in this country should need a 60%-65% majority to change the status quo, IMO. There should also be some mechanism in place that ensures such referendums are fought on fact rather than pure bullshit. The issue of re-joining should be put to the people in a decade or so. It is pointless doing so before then - even though re-join would win, it would only be something like 54-46 and the same old wounds will not heal. The problem is that the terminally stupid are also the most ignorant, and they will not be told they've made a massive mistake. That is something I have learned, and unfortunately something that Labour are now pandering to rather than doing the right thing.

No. I'm afraid we will need to put up with decimating our economy, ever-decreasing health and safety standards, reductions in human rights, instability in Northern Ireland, the collapse of our fishing and farming industries, a third of London's financial business transferred to Frankfurt and political isolation and insignificance for at least ten years before the main parties finally both court the centre ground and admit we'd all be far better off back in the EU (or at the very least, in the CU with access to the SM)

As for Scottish independence, I am amazed they haven't voted to go their own way long before the Brexit referendum. They hardly ever get the government they vote for. Why tolerate that?

 

[BadFish]

ANY referendum in this country should need a 60%-65% majority to change the status quo, IMO. There should also be some mechanism in place that ensures such referendums are fought on fact rather than pure bullshit. The issue of re-joining should be put to the people in a decade or so. It is pointless doing so before then - even though re-join would win, it would only be something like 54-46 and the same old wounds will not heal. The problem is that the terminally stupid are also the most ignorant, and they will not be told they've made a massive mistake. That is something I have learned, and unfortunately something that Labour are now pandering to rather than doing the right thing.

No. I'm afraid we will need to put up with decimating our economy, ever-decreasing health and safety standards, reductions in human rights, instability in Northern Ireland, the collapse of our fishing and farming industries, a third of London's financial business transferred to Frankfurt and political isolation and insignificance for at least ten years before the main parties finally both court the centre ground and admit we'd all be far better off back in the EU (or at the very least, in the CU with access to the SM)

As for Scottish independence, I am amazed they haven't voted to go their own way long before the Brexit referendum. They hardly ever get the government they vote for. Why tolerate that?

Surely, at least some of these could be achieved by voting in a decent government? The Uks propensity for voting Tory no matter what they do should not be underestimated. They believe (with good reason) that they can treat everyone like shit, then throw people a scarp before the election and then get voted in again. This time it looks like tax relief . . . will it be enough at the next election? Probably. Especially while the right-wing press are persuading everyone that the opposition is 'unelectable' (what ever the **** that means.

 

[Eric the meek]

I can only go on my own experience on Newhaven-Dieppe. I've done the crossing three times this year and more times than I count over the last 15+ years. The only change I've seen since Brexit is that my passport is stamped - the time to pass French border control hasn't increased at all. Quick check of each passport and a stamp put into each passport - it really takes no longer than the last 15+ years.

I'll also point out, again, that even the French have said their staff got delayed for working at Dover. Strange, if this is a Brexit problem, that ports such as Newhaven, Portsmouth etc don't have these problems. I'll ask again, what is your experience of travelling across the channel before Brexit v after Brexit ?

Ohh - [MENTION=41643]Eric the meek[/MENTION] - no I wasn't referring to your posts around Brexiteer bashing.

To be more gracious than it may warrant, this thread is about the chaos at Dover. You are extrapolating your experiences on an entirely different route, and assuming they will apply at Dover.

You even question why there are no problems at Newhaven or Portsmouth..... Why would you expect these ports to be relevant?
Does the existence of a problem at Dover, but not at Newhaven or Portsmouth, mean that Brexit cannot be the cause of the problem at Dover? Have you ever looked at a map?

Breaking news: there are no queues on the Plymouth-Roscoff route.

 

[dsr-burnley]

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18485/pdf/

This details 2 years of testing prior to the Brexit changes.

The bit that answers your question, is here:

'Currently, French Authority passport controls UK-France are conducted
infrequently, often based on intelligence and are normally cursory. They have
only rarely impacted traffic flow.'

Interesting, thanks, but that's lorry drivers. How long did it typically take to check car drivers' and passengers' passports? I haven't been via Dover for years, but the Channel Tunnel at St Pancras certainly had proper checks per-Brexit.

 

[Bold Seagull]

To be more gracious than it may warrant, this thread is about the chaos at Dover. You are extrapolating your experiences on an entirely different route, and assuming they will apply at Dover.

You even question why there are no problems at Newhaven or Portsmouth..... Why would you expect these ports to be relevant?
Does the existence of a problem at Dover, but not at Newhaven or Portsmouth, mean that Brexit cannot be the cause of the problem at Dover? Have you ever looked at a map?

Breaking news: there are no queues on the Plymouth-Roscoff route.

Comparing Newhaven to Dover is a bit like saying that although the M25 was stationary queuing traffic, the A272 was fine so what's all the fuss about?

 

[dsr-burnley]

ANY referendum in this country should need a 60%-65% majority to change the status quo, IMO. There should also be some mechanism in place that ensures such referendums are fought on fact rather than pure bullshit. The issue of re-joining should be put to the people in a decade or so. It is pointless doing so before then - even though re-join would win, it would only be something like 54-46 and the same old wounds will not heal. The problem is that the terminally stupid are also the most ignorant, and they will not be told they've made a massive mistake. That is something I have learned, and unfortunately something that Labour are now pandering to rather than doing the right thing.

No. I'm afraid we will need to put up with decimating our economy, ever-decreasing health and safety standards, reductions in human rights, instability in Northern Ireland, the collapse of our fishing and farming industries, a third of London's financial business transferred to Frankfurt and political isolation and insignificance for at least ten years before the main parties finally both court the centre ground and admit we'd all be far better off back in the EU (or at the very least, in the CU with access to the SM)

As for Scottish independence, I am amazed they haven't voted to go their own way long before the Brexit referendum. They hardly ever get the government they vote for. Why tolerate that?

If it takes 60% vote to leave the EC, then it should take a 60% vote to enter it. We never had that vote. I do not like the idea that politicians can make decisions which become binding unless a super-majority of people oppose them; democracy is one-person one-vote and that must not be weakened.

 

[beorhthelm]

To be more gracious than it may warrant, this thread is about the chaos at Dover. You are extrapolating your experiences on an entirely different route, and assuming they will apply at Dover.

You even question why there are no problems at Newhaven or Portsmouth..... Why would you expect these ports to be relevant?
Does the existence of a problem at Dover, but not at Newhaven or Portsmouth, mean that Brexit cannot be the cause of the problem at Dover? Have you ever looked at a map?

Breaking news: there are no queues on the Plymouth-Roscoff route.

think the observation is that the checks took seconds at one port that take a minute at another. apart from volume, the checks themselves should take the same regardless. it seems odd it should take reported 45-60 seconds to ask someone their reason for travel, look at the passport and stamp it. this isnt reported at airports, why not? if its vehicle checks its not being mentioned, and should be same other ports.