[Politics] Brexit

[Captain Sensible]

Will let you know when we strike a free trade deal,and 1000s come flocking on freedom of movement.....and maybe

Yes, NHS over Obama care anyday.

 

[essbee]

FFS give it a rest.

A bit like corrupt and tyrannical English dictatorship preventing Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland fulfilling their independent destiny?

You mean Scotland? Wales and NI might have something to say about that ridiculous statement.

 

[Two Professors]

You mean 5ways theclamp herrtubthumper and hampster gull and all the other doomday merchants.

They're probably the same weirdo,with multiple personalities/avatars

 

[Diego Napier]

View attachment 78870

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Not saying that the answer lays with immigration but the trend appears to show after a sustained high level that productivity can suffer with perhaps too much Labour flocking to the country.

Zero hours contracts and perhaps less quality manufacturing jobs contribute...

Overall though the top graph clearly shows a decline since the crash of 2008..

Not entirely sure what the answer is..

You've clearly selected immigration on which to base your cause and effect analysis in order to make a point. Ignoring any others factors, which categories of immigrant labour do you suggest are the root cause of the UK Workforce's deficient levels of productivity?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I think you're confusing Churchill with Herr Tubthumper??

Lolol!

 

[cunning fergus]

Sure, I'm not neutral but I don't share your urge for immediate recourse to google to confirm my bias.

I too don't accept that the EU is an unequivocal force for good however, looking at the complete economic, legal, humanitarian, environmental & social picture, I do believe that on balance it does far more good than evil. We're 70,000 years into a journey from tribal groups to global citizenship and I view as a negative any regression to our superstitious parochial past.



There is fantastic waste in all aspects of governance, a lot of which is dependent on an individual viewpoint. Whilst some might see billions spent on nuclear deterrence as an imperative others believe it's a waste; some demand additional billions be spent on the NHS whilst others believe it already swallows far too much of the UK's GDP. To borrow a phrase from you, let's not deceive ourselves that the mass of ordinary UK citizens are worse off in the EU or will be materially better off outside.

Some have stated on this thread and others that we are now presented with a wonderful opportunity to make Britain Great again. How are we being held back by the EU? Is EU membership influencing creative individuals to be less innovative or workers lazier or companies less competitive or rich capitalists not invest in British factories? Will leaving the EU galvanise the workforce, suddenly unleashing motivated individuals who will help us catch and then exceed the productivity levels achieved by France, or Italy?



Rather tenuous assumption and hyperbole on the basis of the two examples you used earlier.



Your conclusion depicts you as more gullible than I'd realised. Remote obscured decisions both bureaucratic and democratic affecting you & I will continue to be made in Whitehall and multi-national boardrooms at home and abroad in which we will continue have no say in whatsoever.

We started our discourse by me rather ironically challenging a post you made to someone else on this thread:-



I believe I know why the majority did but you're yet to explain why.

You raised a number of points.........I have tried to address them.

Firstly I don't understand what you mean, I know we have had exchanges on the EU previously, your pro EU position is no shock, as is my opposition, what has Google got to do with it?

We evidently share a degree of commonality, there is plenty that the EU stands for I agree with, first and foremost for trade, however I also consider that the plunge into a supra national entity with all of the associated accoutrements of a United States of Europe is not what the peoples of Europe want. Those in charge of the EU have so far ignored this reality, as proven by Brexit, and previously the rejection of a European constitution in France and Holland, by way of example.

This attitude is wrong headed, undemocratic and frankly downright dangerous. Continental Europe in comparison to the UK has a long history of political extremism, the EU by taking the path it has chosen is blowing on the embers of this latent extremism.

You might want to buy the world a coke but if the majority of people felt that way, 17 million in this country wouldn't have supported a long held UKIP policy.

With regard to waste you are missing the point, sure some may see Trident as a waste of money, however we can vote for and against. How do I as a voter vote against CAP or the other decisions made by the unelected EU executive? It's not possible.

The very fact that you conflate the 2 points and trivialise waste as a natural by-product of Governments is just another measure of your bias, you would not stand for such unaccountability in the UK Govt.

Possibly the best example of this deliberate myopia relates to EU's economic failure with implementing the Euro, and its impact in some of the EZ's poorest countries. The unelected politicians and technocrats behind this have never been sacked or fallen on their sword, instead they just pushed forward ignoring rules and warnings which has caused so much of the internal immigration that has stoked extremism in those richer countries in receipt of these immigrants and it ultimately tipped the UK into Brexit.

It is this and for reasons like the EIB decision to roast Ford's British and EU workers that indicates the EU is undeniably in the pockets of the global corporations, the U.K. Govt would not be able to do this in isolation, and under scrutiny of an effective opposition, (unlike how the EU works).

You won't agree I know, however it is for this reason many voters chose out. Possibly the best indicator of how this view played out in the referendum is the voting result of those aged over 58. In their youth they overwhelmingly backed the Tories to join the common market however over the subsequent 44 years they saw what they had voted for morph into the EU with the loss of sovereignty, the huge financial contribution taxpayers make and the inability of the elected Govt to simply control its own borders.

That is unequivocally NOT why they voted to join the common market..........I suspect rather than understand this motivation you would "believe" they are simply racists.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

Yes, NHS over Obama care anyday.

Yep......despite its faults the NHS is still great,bought my wonderful 12 week old into the world..and gave me every test under the sun when going through a bad patch 5 years ago..

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

They're probably the same weirdo,with multiple personalities/avatars

They have the same "collective" common enemy,but despite this they are very much individual.......

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The real worry for us, is it shows how difficult it can be to get a trade agreement with the E.U.,the Dutch are also holding up an agreement with the Ukraine that everyone else was signed up to and was ready to go with, 2 years ago.

As far as the E.U. are concerned it is Belgium that is not signing up, the Belgian constitution needs all 5 of its regional parliaments to agree to it before it can give its agreement to the E.U.
It is the Walloons "veto" within Belgium that is the blockage, it will be the Belgian Federal Government that bribes one of it's constituent parts I suspect.

It's difficult for the EU because there are 28 ( soon to be 27 ) different parties that have to agree with any deal. When we negotiate there will only be two - us and the other country we're trying to do a deal with - far far we easier.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I'd find this hysterical brexiteer hyperbolic nonsense hilarious if it wasn't for the number of eye-bulging loons who actually believe this crap a number of whom are as expected trying to shout down any dissenting voice on this very thread.

 

[Two Professors]

They have the same "collective" common enemy,but despite this they are very much individual.......

So are schizoid multiple personalities!

 

[Two Professors]

I'd find this hysterical bexiteer hyperbolic nonsense hilarious if it wasn't for the number of eye-bulging loons who actually believe this crap a number of whom are as expected trying to shout down any dissenting voice on this very thread.

Sorry,but which side has the eye-bulging loons?Is it just us Brexiteers?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You voted to leave. It's of no concern to you what the EU gets up to now.

It is whilst we're still members and still paying the ridiculous amounts of money to the EU. Let us stop paying now and I'd agree with you.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

So are schizoid multiple personalities!

Yes,yes you are correct...........reminds me of a programme i watched with a woman who had 11 different personalities.

 

[Two Professors]

The first clause in your question is correct, the second isn't and the third is a construct you've derived from either simplistic or deliberately obtuse logic.

So you want to stay in the EU,expect our employment levels to stay as high as they are,and expect our workers to increase their productivity to French levels in solidarity with their European comrades.Perhaps we could also offer jobs to all the unemployed under-25's in France,Italy,Spain,Portugal,Greece etc.to teach our people their work ethic.Unfortunately,this would double our population.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

You've clearly selected immigration on which to base your cause and effect analysis in order to make a point. Ignoring any others factors, which categories of immigrant labour do you suggest are the root cause of the UK Workforce's deficient levels of productivity?

Well i have no idea,but the company i work for has Capex set at 3.9% 2016 4.5% in 2017 of revenue,is based in 220 countries has multinational representation in the uk workforce and for the record i worked 53.5 hours last week and 49.25 hours this week..

We are very productive...

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'd find this hysterical brexiteer hyperbolic nonsense hilarious if it wasn't for the number of eye-bulging loons who actually believe this crap a number of whom are as expected trying to shout down any dissenting voice on this very thread.

Quite emotive language for someone talking about eye-bulging loons. Unfortunately both sides of this debate has plenty of those. It's the way politics is conducted these days and you have rather proven the point . Oh and the poster who
mentioned a ' corrupt and tyrannical English dictatorship.' That one made me chuckle. We will soon run out of words that are ever more hysterical at which point presumably everyone spontaneously combusts.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

With one small sub-state (Wallonia) blocking the Canadian trade agreement the EU has now told the Canadians that they will clear the blockage. From what I can understand (and presuming the Walloons don't arbitrarily decide to agree the deal) the only way to do this is either to bribe them or bypass them. Either way this will set a dangerous precedent. 'bribery' can come in many forms but will be against the current rules on giving special treatment to member states, but it is the bypass option that concerns me the most. In order to do this the EU will need to override a legitimate power of veto. Once that particular genie is out of the bottle it won't go back and will be available in the future. I'm sure there are several leaders or would-be leaders quite excited by this prospect.
Yet another reason to be glad we're soon to be no part of this corrupt and increasingly dictatorial organisation.

This is deranged. Because one region of a small member state has illustrated how accountable the EU is you raise a series of hypotheses based on the conjecture that it might not be as accountable in future and is therefore corrupt and increasingly dictatorial.

 

[Diego Napier]

You raised a number of points.........I have tried to dress them.

Firstly I don't understand what you mean, I know we have had exchanges on the EU previously, your pro EU position is no shock, as is my opposition, what has Google got to do with it?

We evidently share a degree of commonality, there is plenty that the EU stands for I agree with, first and foremost for trade, however I also consider that the plunge into a supra national entity with all of the associated accoutrements of a United States of Europe is not what the peoples of Europe want. Those in charge of the EU have so far ignored this reality, as proven by Brexit, and previously the rejection of a European constitution in France and Holland, by way of example.

This attitude is wrong headed, undemocratic and frankly downright dangerous. Continental Europe in comparison to the UK has a long history of political extremism, the EU by taking the path it has chosen is blowing on the embers of this latent extremism.

You might want to buy the world a coke but if the majority of people felt that way, 17 million in this country wouldn't have supported a long held UKIP policy.

With regard to waste you are missing the point, sure some may see Trident as a waste of money, however we can vote for and against. How do I as a voter vote against CAP or the other decisions made by the unelected EU executive? It's not possible.

The very fact that you conflate the 2 points and trivialise waste as a natural by-product of Governments is just another measure of your bias, you would not stand for such unaccountability in the UK Govt.

Possibly the best example of this deliberate myopia relates to EU's economic failure with implementing the Euro, and its impact in some of the EZ's poorest countries. The unelected politicians and technocrats behind this have never been sacked or fallen on their sword, instead they just pushed forward ignoring rules and warnings which has caused so much of the internal immigration that has stoked those richer countries in receipt of these immigrants and it ultimately tipped the UK into Brexit.

It is this and for reasons like the EIB decision to roast Ford's British and EU workers that indicates the EU is undeniably in the pockets of the global corporations, the U.K. Govt would not be able to do this in isolation, and under scrutiny of an effective opposition, (unlike how the EU works).

You won't agree I know, however it is for this reason many voters chose out. Possibly the best indicator of how this view played out in the referendum is the voting result of those aged over 58. In their youth they overwhelmingly backed the Tories to join the common market however over the subsequent 44 years they saw what they had voted for morph into the EU with the loss of sovereignty, the huge financial contribution taxpayers make and the inability of the elected Govt to simply control its own borders.

That is unequivocally NOT why they voted to join the common market..........I suspect rather than understand this motivation you would "believe" they are simply racists.

I'll pick up a few salient points.

My reference to google was alluding to your trait of seeking some facts to support your confirmation bias whilst ignoring others.

Your wield the term "undemocratic" as though it is shameful. Democracy is a useful tool to allow the powerful and wealthy to maintaining social order but is in essence just one of a number of belief systems such as catholicism, capitalism, communism or the legal system that usually fail to deliver on their promises whilst duping the public at large.

In that light, your point about Trident and CAP has no meaning for me but let's follow your lead; as the major parties all agree on retaining Trident, how do you vote against it? Assuming that in future Labour decide to ditch nuclear deterrence but I find all their other policies anathema, what do I do? The reality is you or I have no influence whatsoever on whether Trident (or vast swathes of our society & cultural edifices) is maintained, replaced or junked. Equally, I don't care about UK Government waste, there's nothing I can do about it.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that the EU is in cahoots with global business whereas Britain is somehow immune or deliberately shuns their advances. Nothing could be further from the truth. From the first stirrings of true capitalism in the late 18th century, Britain along with other European nations worked closely with private enterprise in the name of revenue. Earlier simple investments in pirateers paved the way with looted gold from the New world providing great returns to the crown. This paved the way for enterprises such as the first opium war with China or wars in the Nile and Egypt, fought solely because revenue to British drug cartels and the Exchequer (and British politicians) was threatened. The collusion is far less obvious today but the bonds of trust, revenue and growth between state and capitalism are ever stronger.

Your concluding statement with it's sad attempt at a put down demeans you rather than me.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Napoleon and Hitler also wanted a United Europe and thankfully we f*cked both of them over, lets hope it is 3 out of 3!

I appear to be sharing a football club with mentally disturbed sub editors from the Daily Express. May Christ weep.