[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

Looks like you're getting tarred because of my comment.

The comment I made [MENTION=15777]c0lz[/MENTION] was that on average the UK tends to succeed in 97% of the legislation that it votes on. The claim made by the Leave camp that we lost 72 out of 72 appeals was correct, but out of context i.e. taking into account all of the other voting that happens in the EU, it was misleading.

To give balance, in this debate I also took Remain to task on the claim that every household would be £4,300 worse off. Whilst true as an average, it was misleading to suggest that every household would be affected equally. Some would suffer greater losses than others.

It's misleading claims like these (the £350m a week claim was another convenient misleading comment) that have poisoned the debate. But, the facts were all there. They have all been debunked by experts. However, the electorate wanted to ignore these explanations and voted on the perceived and real injustice i.e. we have failed to redistribute wealth, invest in the right infrastructure, create jobs, support those on low incomes etc. Unfortunately, this is all the responsibility of our UK Parliament, not the EU.

Hey ho, we've bitten our noses off. Smitten our faces. Better get on with it now.

I've just finished a great business meeting in Brussels with a new potential client. I reckon I can win the work, but I've realised that I'll probably need to employ a French consultant. The great thing is, I'll probably be able to do so as I very much doubt freedom of movement rules will change. It's what the markets are suddenly banking on. They are thinking that business will be protected by freedom of movement and access to the single market. The only stuff that will change for the UK will be EU regulations around stuff like climate change, security, and workers right. That's why they are all holding the breath. They'll also be hoping that London agrees to whatever measures are required to retain its status as the clearing house for EU trade - which I guess it could do so inside a single market. All things we're working out. Of course we would have known this in advance if the Leave campaign had had a PLAN.

All the while we can watch out for a post Brexit government to peel back workers rights, implement further austerity measures that cut redistribution of wealth to those in need further. What we should have been doing is demanding more of our MPs. They should have been building a fairer Britain, not the EU.

Anyhow, now I reckon we need a 5 year plan. Retain access to the single common market and protect freedom of movement. Years 1-2 establish confidence in the pound and complete projects like HS2 that will provide access to the Northern Powerhouse. Agree to the expansion of Manchester, Gatwick and Heathrow. Cut all corporate taxes for Pharmaceutical, Technology and R&D firms. Provide regional stimulus for firms investing in UK Plc off the back of such cuts. Freeze the living wage for 5 years. Years 3-5, invest in significant business parks in Wales, Scotland and Manchester - replicate some of the great work in this area that has been done in areas like Cambridge. Reintroduce working tax credits at 2008 levels and increase tax receipts across the board - high incomes especially, corporate and capital (especially the latter). And, I hate to say this, but I think we may have no choice - and this goes against all my principles - fast track privatisation of the NHS and Education - with a massive focus on the latter, attracting STEM businesses to drive that agenda.

This last paragraph is just me shooting from the hip, but I've heard sod all from either the Leave campaign members or the Remain campaign members on what the answer is now that we find ourselves where we are. Caveat to all this is my answer would have been different had we chosen to Remain, which should go without saying.

I think it is worth finding out what legislation the UK was unsuccessful in blocking, which I am going to look further into, however I do know that one was the working time directive, which is up for amendment soon. E.U. wants to remove the opt out for the maximum 48 hour working week. Workers should be concerned if this directive is torn up.

 

[Hamilton]

I am still a UK National but not a UK resident. However, both my children are. I am still entitled to say "we".
Don't play the race card. They play it for real over here. As it happens, most of the crime here is committed by South Africans but there is a good proportion of it committed by other Africans, many of whom are illegal immigrants. I have been subjected to an attempted robbery at gunpoint and an attempted carjacking but I'm not sure which nationality the perpetrators were.

I didn't play the race card mate. You did.

You stuck it plumb on the table with your Roma comment.

If you can't take it, don't dish it. In fact, just don't dish it.


Sent from my iPhone in a non-Calde world :-(

 

[Seagull58]

I didn't play the race card mate. You did.

You stuck it plumb on the table with your Roma comment.

If you can't take it, don't dish it. In fact, just don't dish it.


Sent from my iPhone in a non-Calde world :-(

The people washing cars and breaking into houses in Folkestone are a group of Romas. Hence, I made that comment as an example of the type of immigrant that is not wanted. People in South Africa are not so paranoid about saying things like "Nigerian drug dealers" or "Zimbabwean carjackers" because the crime statistics back up those comments. I wasn't playing the race card.
Perhaps I should have said "EU immigrants" washing cars and breaking into houses?

 

[Titanic]

The Trident replacement can be pushed back for several years without any risk. Trident will be a serviceable nuclear deterrent for a long time yet. In any case, nobody is going to try to find out whether it still works or not.

Perhaps we could get away with just pretending to upgrade it? As you say, who would ever know? and if it got to that point, who would even care?

 

[Baldseagull]

What I actually voted for was to leave the European Union Parliament which I would like to see systematically dismantled, a profligate waste of money on a monumental scale, one that has to have 3 seats of power, one in Brussels, one in Strasbourg just to satisfy the French and another in Luxembourg, an organisation that ridiculously has to relocate from one location to the other on a regular basis which could save somewhere in the region of 115 million euros a year (small change compared to the 1.8 billion euros it cost to run in 2015!) . It is a monstrously expensive gravy train that has grown out of control and does not serve my interests or I believe those of Britain at all well. I'm happy to have an economic union with Europe, I'm happy for the freedom of movement to continue I just don't believe this overblown self serving organisation deserves to continue with British support. I voted to get rid of this:

View attachment 76190

and this:

View attachment 76191

Where we are likely to still take legislation from, and contribute to financially, just now with no representatives.

 

[Hamilton]

I think it is worth finding out what legislation the UK was unsuccessful in blocking, which I am going to look further into, however I do know that one was the working time directive, which is up for amendment soon. E.U. wants to remove the opt out for the maximum 48 hour working week. Workers should be concerned if this directive is torn up.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/extras/48houroptout.pdf

Interesting stuff here about the opt out. Just been reading it.


Sent from my iPhone in a non-Calde world :-(

 

[Baldseagull]

Now I'll no longer be able to get a job at the European parliament as an elected MEP, how do I get into the House of Lords instead?

View attachment 76192

Give a shedload of cash to a Political party and hope they get in.

 

[Seagull58]

Perhaps we could get away with just pretending to upgrade it? As you say, who would ever know? and if it got to that point, who would even care?

Doesn't keep enough people in work if we just pretend!

 

[ManOfSussex]

Give a shedload of cash to a Political party and hope they get in.

That's good to know that's not going to change then with leaving the EU then. I'd really hate it if The House of Lords became democratic and progressive.

 

[beorhthelm]

What?? I was trying to understand the nonsense you initially wrote... I have stated all along that 0.5% is from EU immigration... The majority of immigration has nothing to do with the EU and from the outside. What do you no understand about that.

ONS numbers for year ending 2015: immigration for EU citizens was 270,000. immigration of non-EU citizens was 277,000. therefore immigration from EU is 49%. feel free to dig into the numbers and adjust for net and whatnot, see if you can get near 0.5%

 

[Titanic]

Doesn't keep enough people in work if we just pretend!

Pay them to do something more useful? Build houses perhaps??

 

[ManOfSussex]

Perhaps we could get away with just pretending to upgrade it? As you say, who would ever know? and if it got to that point, who would even care?

The Russian FSB would notice. It's one of the reasons Putin wanted a Brexit.

 

[Baldseagull]

You and others keep on going on about freedom of movement and how it won't change. Cameron briefed the EU ministers yesterday and briefed the House today. He stated explicitly that, in his view it was uncontrolled migration that was the primary reason for Leave winning. He believes that immigration control is the top requirement. He recognises that it will be very difficult to achieve since the EU historically links freedom of movement to open access to the single market but he expects that to be the negotiating starting point.

I expect it to be our negotiating starting point, I do not believe it will be in the end agreement.

 

[Hamilton]

The people washing cars and breaking into houses in Folkestone are a group of Romas. Hence, I made that comment as an example of the type of immigrant that is not wanted. People in South Africa are not so paranoid about saying things like "Nigerian drug dealers" or "Zimbabwean carjackers" because the crime statistics back up those comments. I wasn't playing the race card.
Perhaps I should have said "EU immigrants" washing cars and breaking into houses?

Hey, I have a Polish cleaner. She is charming, wonderful and would do anything for anyone. QED, all immigrants are wonderful.

Guess what, there are heroes and ********s across all races.

Who knows what your neighbours say about you behind your back? I'm sure they say lovely things.

Just don't play the race card at all is my advice.

By all means debate multi-culturalism and the policies and processes we should put in place to ensure it exists alongside and without diminishing the native culture. That's worthy of debate anytime.


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[East Preston Gull]

I'm in full agreement on this part. We really need to be looking at ways of managing the immigration we have, and that means somehow wealthier areas taking a fair share of immigrants rather than posting pictures of posters on Facebook that scream "WE ARE NOT FULL" as if anybody who disagrees is an idiot, and that frankly belong in the VI form common room. This however, is not an easy one to solve.

This is where you are completely wrong, IMO. They provide plenty of benefits. They pay taxes, they often do jobs locals won't do, and most importantly, they are paying into our national pension pot and are highly unlikely to claim that back in 40 years time. Thank God, because that is a problem waiting to explode, and most immigrants are completely unaware they are even helping us in this way.

There is a big confusion here. The migrants who most of these remainers seem to meet appear to be the career kind. Doctors, Teachers, Dentists and skilled trades people. These guys and girls earn a good wage and contribute to our economy both in social, culture and financial terms, any idiot can see that is a good thing.

At the other end of the spectrum is the unskilled and job hunting members of the migration groups. They earn minimum wage if they are lucky, which only just takes them over the tax bracket, have full use of schools, medical and some benefit perks. This is a drain on society and also brings competition for jobs and medical/school places.

I don't want to stoop to the level of some on here but certain remainers need to see the a view from the other side of society. Immigration is a real issue for many and is seriously causing problems in all aspects of their lives.

I personally have seen big reductions in my hard earnt income even though my trade has a skill that migrants don't appear to have. The Construction industry and it's obsession with employing cheap European Labour and expecting us to reduce our prices down to that level is getting worse every financial year.

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[Seagull58]

That's good to know that's not going to change then with leaving the EU then. I'd really hate it if The House of Lords became democratic and progressive.

Another of Blair's failures, and one that I could never understand. If you're elected on a mandate of changing the Lords to an elected body and doing away with hereditaries, which I think he was, why do you then bottle it?

 

[Seagull58]

Hey, I have a Polish cleaner. She is charming, wonderful and would do anything for anyone. QED, all immigrants are wonderful.

Guess what, there are heroes and ********s across all races.

Who knows what your neighbours say about you behind your back? I'm sure they say lovely things.

Just don't play the race card at all is my advice.

By all means debate multi-culturalism and the policies and processes we should put in place to ensure it exists alongside and without diminishing the native culture. That's worthy of debate anytime.


Sent from my iPhone in a non-Calde world :-(

I did not play the race card. I gave an example of EU immigrants that should not be allowed into the country for the reasons stated, highlighting an issue with free movement as it currently applies.
You are persisting in applying a context to my post that is not there. At no point have I said all EU immigrants are bad or all EU immigration is bad. Nor would I ever say that the only good pole is a deed pole. You have an axe to grind and you are continuing to grind it regardless.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Another of Blair's failures, and one that I could never understand. If you're elected on a mandate of changing the Lords to an elected body and doing away with hereditaries, which I think he was, why do you then bottle it?

True, he got rid of the heredity peers, but didn't go the full hog on total reform. Maybe his wars got in the way?

 

[SK1NT]

ONS numbers for year ending 2015: immigration for EU citizens was 270,000. immigration of non-EU citizens was 277,000. therefore immigration from EU is 49%. feel free to dig into the numbers and adjust for net and whatnot, see if you can get near 0.5%

Wow you really are incredibly thick... I am making two separate points...

1) I said non EU migration was higher than EU migration... Thank you your figures have proved that i was correct.

2) I NEVER said EU migration compared to non EU was 0.5% that's just crazy. The 0.5% is the figure of immigration as a whole in relation to population.

Please stop typing now.. You are not doing yourself any favours.

I appreciate your providing of the figures though that back up my points

 

[Seagull58]

True, he got rid of the heredity peers, but didn't go the full hog on total reform. Maybe his wars got in the way?

But it wasn't a case of not having enough time for the legislation or anything. He simply came up with a "solution" where the Lords remained an unelected body. It must have been a deliberate decision to retain control over the make up of the House by retaining the ability to create peers and, so, choose who sits in there.