[Politics] Brexit

[Simster]

Ditto university. No reason in principle why they shouldn't put VAT on university fees too.

That's not the same thing because there is no free state provision of university education. Therefore adding VAT to uni fees really might be the difference between somebody pursuing further education and not doing so.

 

[nicko31]

I still can’t quite believe the UK did it .

I was brought up in a pro EEC home, it was a largely old school Tory thing, the left opposed the EU hence the legacy of Corbyn, Crow and Lynch being dead against the project. Originally for us on the basis of European unity being good for peace.

Simply assuming our membership would last forever.

Brought up in very Tory house, during the Thatcher period all I ever got from my parents is, don't ever vote Labour they'll rip out out of the common market.

3 decades later both those parents (still Tory) voted Brexit. I think we'll through it now but it created a lot of bad blood in the family, we avoid the B word, on this I'm not alone.

 

[Weststander]

Brought up in very Tory house, during the Thatcher period all I ever got from my parents is, don't ever vote Labour they'll rip out out of the common market.

3 decades later both those parents (still Tory) voted Brexit. I think we'll through it now but it created a lot of bad blood in the family, we avoid the B word, on this I'm not alone.

My Dad, now in his mid 80's, is still pro EU. It's taboo only because it's a miserable subject for us all.

 

[abc]

The party was in thrall to Corbyn and his band of arseholes back then. Starmer had absolutely no traction. I had no idea he even existed, and would have ignored him had he piped up.

The Lib Dems may have 'owned' remain, but they put it in a box and locked it in a shed on an allotment. They had no traction with the electorate at the time.

(Happy to see Starmer criticied now for being dull, wasting Lord Alli's money on nice suits and/or turning up to international summits dressed in cheap clobber from M&S (sometimes you just can't win), and miss-handling the winter fuel freeby (I really needed the money; there is a Michelin starred restaurant I really fancied visiting and the hand out would of done nicely for that).)

Blaming Starmzy for not irrigating the lacklustre Corbyn opposition and saving the Remain campaign is a bit of a stretch.

Still, when a man is down, why not put the boot in?

Wasn’t Starmer shadow home office minister under Corbyn?

The party was in thrall to Corbyn and his band of arseholes back then. Starmer had absolutely no traction. I had no idea he even existed, and would have ignored him had he piped up.

The Lib Dems may have 'owned' remain, but they put it in a box and locked it in a shed on an allotment. They had no traction with the electorate at the time.

(Happy to see Starmer criticied now for being dull, wasting Lord Alli's money on nice suits and/or turning up to international summits dressed in cheap clobber from M&S (sometimes you just can't win), and miss-handling the winter fuel freeby (I really needed the money; there is a Michelin starred restaurant I really fancied visiting and the hand out would of done nicely for that).)

Blaming Starmzy for not irrigating the lacklustre Corbyn opposition and saving the Remain campaign is a bit of a stretch.

Still, when a man is down, why not put the boot in?

Starmer was very much part of corbyn’s Labour Party including (correct me if I’m wrong) as shadow home office minister. He (and others) could have at least tried to get some pro eu impetus going within Labour but he (and others) did not, to their lasting shame.
I want Starmer to succeed, so no attempt at putting the boot in. Just venting on the whole brexit debacle.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Wasn’t Starmer shadow home office minister under Corbyn?

Starmer was very much part of corbyn’s Labour Party including (correct me if I’m wrong) as shadow home office minister. He (and others) could have at least tried to get some pro eu impetus going within Labour but he (and others) did not, to their lasting shame.
I want Starmer to succeed, so no attempt at putting the boot in. Just venting on the whole brexit debacle.

How do you know that? Corbyn had his own little echo chamber, but we will never know what individual members of the shadow cabinet might have said to the comrade leader in private. And Starmer is hardly the sort to go gobbing off to the press like the silly arse MP who was rebuked recently.

And, in fact. Starmer did kick off, in the honourable way:

"Keir Starmer felt so strongly about the Brexit referendum result in June 2016 that he quit as a junior shadow minister under Jeremy Corbyn.
A few months later he returned to the Labour frontbench as shadow Brexit secretary and spent the next four years campaigning to mitigate the result, which he described as “catastrophic”, while at the same time retaining voters in “red wall” constituencies.
He campaigned against a no-deal Brexit and for a second referendum to give the people a “confirmatory vote” on any deal with Brussels."

There is no lasting shame there.

Why do people keep getting Starmer wrong?

‘Is it a U-turn?’: what Keir Starmer has said about Brexit redress

Labour leader’s latest words on Brexit close door on former ambition to soften or overturn it

www.theguardian.com

 

[The Clamp]

I understand why nobody has but a party needs to grasp the nettle and campaign on a return to the EU ticket.

This nation is doomed without it and at some point in the future somebody will have to try and get us back in.

I hate how spineless this nation has become.

Allowing such damaging thing to keep going because nobody had the stones to stand up and say what needs to be said.

So quintessentially British isn’t it. Would rather be slowly crushed to death than make a fuss.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I understand why nobody has but a party needs to grasp the nettle and campaign on a return to the EU ticket.

This nation is doomed without it and at some point in the future somebody will have to try and get us back in.

I hate how spineless this nation has become.

Allowing such damaging thing to keep going because nobody had the stones to stand up and say what needs to be said.

So quintessentially British isn’t it. Would rather be slowly crushed to death than make a fuss.

If Starmer campaigned to rejoin now it would absolutely guarantee a Tory government in the next parliament, possibly in a coalition with Farage.

Now is not the time for this.

(And I am massively pro EU/remain/return)

 

[jcdenton08]

I understand why nobody has but a party needs to grasp the nettle and campaign on a return to the EU ticket.

This nation is doomed without it and at some point in the future somebody will have to try and get us back in.

I hate how spineless this nation has become.

Allowing such damaging thing to keep going because nobody had the stones to stand up and say what needs to be said.

So quintessentially British isn’t it. Would rather be slowly crushed to death than make a fuss.

Lack of grassroots support I’d wager. You’d either need to buy attention or have a massive groundswell of young voters to be heard on this.

The extremely wealthy aren’t interested in funding a party or donating huge sums to an existing party for a Return to EU campaign. This would be extremely expensive, have little chance of success and in many cases is entirely not in their interest anyway.

Which leaves students and young voters and, let’s face it, Clegg and later Corbyn were their chances to be heard. The Clegg LibCon fiasco turned a lot of young people off politics, seeing their votes get used to have the Tories running the show, and Clegg jumping into bed with them.

Most young people aren’t interested in Brexit (although they bloody should be) - politically they are far more concerned with Palestine/Israel and green issues than Brexit

 

[The Clamp]

If Starmer campaigned to rejoin now it would absolutely guarantee a Tory government in the next parliament, possibly in a coalition with Farage.

Now is not the time for this.

(And I am massively pro EU/remain/return)

I wasn’t really thinking of Starmer’s government. They’re done. They’ve slipped in shit early on and won’t recover now.

 

[chip]

I wasn’t really thinking of Starmer’s government. They’re done. They’ve slipped in shit early on and won’t recover now.

Wouldn't we have to start negotiating terms first? Maybe, and I'm feeling generous today, they have been. I guess it's too long a project at this time and the conditions won't be as good, possibly to hard to sell now?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I wasn’t really thinking of Starmer’s government. They’re done. They’ve slipped in shit early on and won’t recover now.

Well the Tories aren't going to revisit Brexit.

Which party do you have in mind that will form the next government on a platform of taking us back into the EU?

 

[jcdenton08]

Well the Tories aren't going to revisit Brexit.

Which party do you have in mind that will form the next government on a platform of taking us back into the EU?

Have to be the Libs or a new one issue centrist party

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Wouldn't we have to start negotiating terms first? Maybe, and I'm feeling generous today, they have been. I guess it's too long a project at this time and the conditions won't be as good, possibly to hard to sell now?

I suspect the EU would desist from punishing us (as hard as we deserve) if we try to crawl back into the EU, but we certainly won't be given all the sweetheart arrangements that were negotiated in the past (largely by the Tories, ironically).

Maybe in a couple of years this will become a thing, but I don't smell the faintest whiff of this presently.

Are even the liberals and greens still talking about reversing Brexit? I'll look it up....

 

[chip]

Have to be the Libs or a new one issue centrist party

Leave it long enough and Reform will pick it up

 

[The Clamp]

Well the Tories aren't going to revisit Brexit.

Which party do you have in mind that will form the next government on a platform of taking us back into the EU?

Oh go on then. I’ll bloody do it.

 

[The Clamp]

I suspect the EU would desist from punishing us (as hard as we deserve) if we try to crawl back into the EU, but we certainly won't be given all the sweetheart arrangements that were negotiated in the past (largely by the Tories, ironically).

Maybe in a couple of years this will become a thing, bur I don't smell the faintest whiff of this presently.

Are even the liberals and greens still talking about reversing Brexit? I'll look it up....

I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m posting. We are arguing the exact same point. Nobody is going to anytime soon.

That’s exactly what I’m saying / lamenting.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I suspect the EU would desist from punishing us (as hard as we deserve) if we try to crawl back into the EU, but we certainly won't be given all the sweetheart arrangements that were negotiated in the past (largely by the Tories, ironically).

Maybe in a couple of years this will become a thing, bur I don't smell the faintest whiff of this presently.

Are even the liberals and greens still talking about reversing Brexit? I'll look it up....

Nope. Just joining the single market. I agree with that but it won't sell. Yet.

• Taking immediate action to improve links with our European neighbours, including building closer ties in education by reforming the government’s Turing scheme.
• Further steps to build confidence and establish stronger relationships with Europe, including seeking cooperation agreements with EU agencies, returning to Erasmus Plus and seeking to reach a UK-EU agreement on asylum seekers.
• Deepening trade with Europe, including by negotiating greater access for our world-leading UK food and animal products to the Single Market, securing deals on sector-specific work visas and establishing mutual recognition of professional qualifications.
• Once the trading relationship between the UK and the EU is deepened, and the ties of trust and friendship are renewed, aim to place the UK–EU relationship on a more formal and stable footing by seeking to join the Single Market.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I think you’re misunderstanding what I’m posting. We are arguing the exact same point. Nobody is going to anytime soon.

That’s exactly what I’m saying / lamenting.

Apologies. Yes, indeed.

 

[chip]

I suspect the EU would desist from punishing us (as hard as we deserve) if we try to crawl back into the EU, but we certainly won't be given all the sweetheart arrangements that were negotiated in the past (largely by the Tories, ironically).

Maybe in a couple of years this will become a thing, bur I don't smell the faintest whiff of this presently.

Are even the liberals and greens still talking about reversing Brexit? I'll look it up....

I agree, I think there would need to be some courtship first. I don't think most countries want their finances examined at the moment and we probably can't meet the requirements in any case. We could become Turkey without the sun.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I agree, I think there would need to be some courtship first. I don't think most countries want their finances examined at the moment and we probably can't meet the requirements in any case. We could become Turkey without the sun.

And without the harassments of women and persecution of minorities. Or the Bosphorus. Or Galatasaray.

I'm IN!