[Politics] Brexit

[Mo Gosfield]

Remember the dear old Brexit bus?

'We send the EU £350 million a week'
'Let's fund the NHS instead'.
'Vote Leave'.

My mate is in the Royal Sussex County Hospital. He has cancer. His latest bout of chemo gave him a heart attack. His third one from chemo.
He has a 'Do Not Resuscitate'.
He went in to A & E on Sunday, and was still there in the chaos of A & E, 48 hours later. There wasn't a bed for him.
He is now on a ward, and they have told him they won't give him any more chemo.

He voted Leave.

Where Are They Now? The Brexit Bus

THE BUS slogan that will live in infamy: 'We send the EU £350 million a week, let's fund our NHS instead - Vote Leave'. Many commentators maintain that the evocative message emblazoned on the side of …

waterfordwhispersnews.com

Remember it well. You can fool some of the people some of the time.
Until a government has the courage to undertake a real root and branch reform of the NHS, funding will continue to disappear into a massive black hole of overburdening middle management and inefficiency.
Sorry to read about your mate. Been there, got the tee shirt and luckily came out the other side. Thoughts are with him.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Today we hear that there was 0% growth in the month of April 2024. It has been 2 years since the end of the Covid pandemic and the economy has flatlined. Councils are going bankrupt, we cannot afford to finish off HS2 or even fil the potholes. We can't afford luxuries, we can barely dream of contributing 2.5% of GDP to NATO to defend ourselves and yet taxation is at a record high.

The elephant in the room is Brexit and the ongoing cost to the UK economy (£140 billion to January 2024). However, the only political figure of the 2 main parties that is engaging with that question is the Labour Mayor of London Sadiq Khan.

I welcome the Lib Dems having the balls to put "rejoin the Single Market" in their 2024 manifesto, especially after experiencing near full-on wipeout in the "Get Brexit Done" GE of 2019. Labour's 'costed budget' is entirely dependent upon getting the sort of growth we haven't seen in the last 2 years and - perhaps - a level of growth that is a thing of the past for a post-EU UK.

They are a much better option than the Tories and yet - let's be brutally honest here - the extra VAT on private schools and removing non-Dom status will barely plug gaps in the education and NHS budgets. None of their policies are likely to change stagnant growth for years to come.

I wouldn't have such a problem with Brexit if there were economic benefits offsetting the loss created by exiting the Single Market but there are no benefits. We're deep into the GE campaign and Rishi has barely mentioned the 'B' word, future trade agreements or freeports.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

A second referendum with a majority voting to re-join the EU is only the beginning as we would have to re-apply and meet the criteria. This could take years to process.

 

[Baldseagull]

Today we hear that there was 0% growth in the month of April 2024. It has been 2 years since the end of the Covid pandemic and the economy has flatlined. Councils are going bankrupt, we cannot afford to finish off HS2 or even fil the potholes. We can't afford luxuries, we can barely dream of contributing 2.5% of GDP to NATO to defend ourselves and yet taxation is at a record high.

The elephant in the room is Brexit and the ongoing cost to the UK economy (£140 billion to January 2024). However, the only political figure of the 2 main parties that is engaging with that question is the Labour Mayor of London Sadiq Khan.

I welcome the Lib Dems having the balls to put "rejoin the Single Market" in their 2024 manifesto, especially after experiencing near full-on wipeout in the "Get Brexit Done" GE of 2019. Labour's 'costed budget' is entirely dependent upon getting the sort of growth we haven't seen in the last 2 years and - perhaps - a level of growth that is a thing of the past for a post-EU UK.

They are a much better option than the Tories and yet - let's be brutally honest here - the extra VAT on private schools and removing non-Dom status will barely plug gaps in the education and NHS budgets. None of their policies are likely to change stagnant growth for years to come.

I wouldn't have such a problem with Brexit if there were economic benefits offsetting the loss created by exiting the Single Market but there are no benefits. We're deep into the GE campaign and Rishi has barely mentioned the 'B' word, future trade agreements or freeports.

I would be surprised if a Labour government doesn't look for being in the single market, and customs union, by some mechanism other than full membership of the EU. They just can't promise anything, because it needs to be negotiated with the EU, and the Cons would try and energise the Gammon by saying Labour want open borders.
I would vote Liberal, but they come nowhere in Crawley, and the Tories must go.

 

[Machiavelli]

Remember it well. You can fool some of the people some of the time.
Until a government has the courage to undertake a real root and branch reform of the NHS, funding will continue to disappear into a massive black hole of overburdening middle management and inefficiency.
Sorry to read about your mate. Been there, got the tee shirt and luckily came out the other side. Thoughts are with him.

I'm not denying that the NHS might need reform, but there's a canard that's developing which you've stated. It's that the NHS is getting extra funding (which you only imply) and it goes into middle management and inefficiency, of which I'll say two things:
1, the demand for healthcare rises at c4%pa; funding for the NHS has only just exceeded real-term increases since 2010. It quite simply hasn't had substantial funding during this period, although it did during the prior 11 years. We spend less on healthcare than most other G7 countries.
2, there may well be inefficiencies in the NHS, but there are lots of efficiencies courtesy of its nationalised status and free at the point of delivery guarantee. We don't have the bureaucracies generated by charging and processing claims, insurances, etc.

 

[pocketseagull]

Don't think we need another Referendum, eventually a winning party will have promised to take measures to rejoin in their manifesto and it'll go from there.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have read the comments above, and it is all so sad.

As noted, Labour dare not moot rejoining (or even creating other half way arrangements) because it would be weaponized by the Tories.

And even if the electorate could be persuaded to revisit the issue, we can't expect simply to breeze back into the EU. The terms would need to be negotiated. At present the EU would welcome us, I expect. But as mad governments get into power in Europe (nationalist lunatics) that window is likely to close.

In the meantime, we are stuck in a mess, with the election debate largely about tinkering with tax and spend.

I just hope Labour have a plan, and will get a big enough majority to be bold and act.

But the Tories will weaponize anything that digresses from the post Brexit 'freedom' narrative. Any steps Labour take to make radical improvements will be classed as 'betrayal' and because it wasn't in the manifesto 'the nation has been lied to by Labour'.

Depressing.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This is from 2016. See how the inevitable was accurately predicted by Remain types, and hpow much utter nonsense was swallowed by leavers. Tragic.

 

[Machiavelli]

I have read the comments above, and it is all so sad.

As noted, Labour dare not moot rejoining (or even creating other half way arrangements) because it would be weaponized by the Tories.

And even if the electorate could be persuaded to revisit the issue, we can't expect simply to breeze back into the EU. The terms would need to be negotiated. At present the EU would welcome us, I expect. But as mad governments get into power in Europe (nationalist lunatics) that window is likely to close.

In the meantime, we are stuck in a mess, with the election debate largely about tinkering with tax and spend.

I just hope Labour have a plan, and will get a big enough majority to be bold and act.

But the Tories will weaponize anything that digresses from the post Brexit 'freedom' narrative. Any steps Labour take to make radical improvements will be classed as 'betrayal' and because it wasn't in the manifesto 'the nation has been lied to by Labour'.

Depressing.

We're in a crisis. When you're in a crisis, you need a clear, new sense of direction, and a transformation away from where you are. As you're admitting, Labour won't be delivering that, and we and they will suffer as a consequence. Labour have enormous room for manoeuvre, but have allowed them to be boxed in. When in government, they can remain in that box, or seek to break out. I suspect it'll be the former.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

We're in a crisis. When you're in a crisis, you need a clear, new sense of direction, and a transformation away from where you are. As you're admitting, Labour won't be delivering that, and we and they will suffer as a consequence. Labour have enormous room for manoeuvre, but have allowed them to be boxed in. When in government, they can remain in that box, or seek to break out. I suspect it'll be the former.

I fear you are right, but hope Starmer has learned from the timidity of Blair. I was fully expecting Blair to edge gently to the left as the nation relaxed and stopped thinking he was going to bring back secondary picketing and renationalize power and water (oh, the irony). But he never did. People seemed to like that, however, so who am I to criticize.

Unfortunately, now we are out of the EU and up shit creek, I'm not sure that a paddle is available even if Starmer decides to make a grab for one.

 

[Machiavelli]

I fear you are right, but hope Starmer has learned from the timidity of Blair. I was fully expecting Blair to edge gently to the left as the nation relaxed and stopped thinking he was going to bring back secondary picketing and renationalize power and water (oh, the irony). But he never did. People seemed to like that, however, so who am I to criticize.

Unfortunately, now we are out of the EU and up shit creek, I'm not sure that a paddle is available even if Starmer decides to make a grab for one.

The New Labour government was comfortably the best government of my adult life, and there were some great achievements there. But they supped too much neoliberal kool-aid, which came back to bite them in the end. Since 2008, the neoliberal project has been in tatters but it is yet to go away, and the only alternatives that sufficient numbers have rallied round (nationalism and antagonising minorities) are unsustainable in 21C.
All of this has left such a mire for Starmer, etc to haul us out from. We can hope that the massive majority he'll likely get will embolden him, because timidity will grind him down soon enough.
Anyway, we'll see what emerges. Not long to wait now.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The New Labour government was comfortably the best government of my adult life, and there were some great achievements there. But they supped too much neoliberal kool-aid, which came back to bite them in the end. Since 2008, the neoliberal project has been in tatters but it is yet to go away, and the only alternatives that sufficient numbers have rallied round (nationalism and antagonising minorities) are unsustainable in 21C.
All of this has left such a mire for Starmer, etc to haul us out from. We can hope that the massive majority he'll likely get will embolden him, because timidity will grind him down soon enough.
Anyway, we'll see what emerges. Not long to wait now.

Indeed.

 

[WATFORD zero]

It's absolutely farcical putting out the manifestos and arguing about a few million when we are losing over £100B PER YEAR off our economy, because nobody wants to address the elephant in the room

The simple fact is that we will never get close to the level of power we wielded in the biggest economic bloc in the world and the huge economic effects will be felt for decades even if we rejoin the Customs Union tomorrow, but there was always going to be a very significant cost to a national demonstration of complete and utter idiocy.
However, is that really any reason to keep driving this downward trajectory forwards and trashing the economy whilst the infrastructure of Britain collapses around us

I don't care what he wants to call it in order to not scare the horses, but Starmer has to take early steps to getting us back into the CU doesn't he

 

[nicko31]

It's absolutely farcical putting out the manifestos and arguing about a few million when we are losing over £100B PER YEAR off our economy, because nobody wants to address the elephant in the room

The simple fact is that we will never get close to the level of power we wielded in the biggest economic bloc in the world and the huge economic effects will be felt for decades even if we rejoin the Customs Union tomorrow, but there was always going to be a very significant cost to a national demonstration of complete and utter idiocy.
However, is that really any reason to keep driving this downward trajectory forwards and trashing the economy whilst the infrastructure of Britain collapses around us

I don't care what he wants to call it in order to not scare the horses, but Starmer has to take early steps to getting us back into the CU doesn't he

He does indeed.

At some point people are going to have face up that the pursuit of faux sovereignty comes at a price, a very heavy price.

The penny is finally dropping, Brexiters are dying off and the young aren’t keen on isolation.

 

[nicko31]

Boring from the man who spends half his life posting lengthy lefty threads on here! I quite like my parallel universe thanks. We agree on one thing. The implementation of Brexit has been a mess. This Government is a joke. So that's probably 2 things we agree on. I don't think Labour are the same but I would suggest the 2 main party leaders are almost interchangeable. However the current shower of a Government are so bad he can't do much worse!

I’m curious how can Brexit be implemented better?

Putting the Brexit deficit aside that has already accumulated. Is there a way to make Brexit work with tangible benefits?

 

[Is it PotG?]

I’m curious how can Brexit be implemented better?

Putting the Brexit deficit aside that has already accumulated. Is there a way to make Brexit work with tangible benefits?

Sir Starmer has, I believe, expressed a solution for the future once in power.

 

[chickens]

I’m at a stage in life now where I consider what happens to me less important than the world that my kids, for want of a better word, inherit.

I want them to have opportunities to live and work abroad if that’s what they want. My daughter has excellent French and Spanish, my son is too young to be thinking seriously about adult life.

I fear that the likes of Reform and the modern Conservative Party want to keep us boxed in and ignorant of the wider world outside our borders, that they want us to stay in our homes and thank our lucky stars that we’re being allowed to work for subsistence wages in grindingly dull jobs.

I will vote tactically on this occasion to get the Conservative Party out, that’s imperative, the country can take no more, but at the next election I’ll be voting for the party that will explore reuniting with Europe. If that isn’t Labour, so be it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’m at a stage in life now where I consider what happens to me less important than the world that my kids, for want of a better word, inherit.

I want them to have opportunities to live and work abroad if that’s what they want. My daughter has excellent French and Spanish, my son is too young to be thinking seriously about adult life.

I fear that the likes of Reform and the modern Conservative Party want to keep us boxed in and ignorant of the wider world outside our borders, that they want us to stay in our homes and thank our lucky stars that we’re being allowed to work for subsistence wages in grindingly dull jobs.

I will vote tactically on this occasion to get the Conservative Party out, that’s imperative, the country can take no more, but at the next election I’ll be voting for the party that will explore reuniting with Europe. If that isn’t Labour, so be it.

If 'they' have a realistic chance of a win then I'm in. A protest vote, however, is a wasted vote.

 

[chickens]

If 'they' have a realistic chance of a win then I'm in. A protest vote, however, is a wasted vote.

I’m genuinely hoping that the Lib Dems are able to form the official opposition after this election, and hold Labour’s feet to the fire a bit on this.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I’m genuinely hoping that the Lib Dems are able to form the official opposition after this election, and hold Labour’s feet to the fire a bit on this.

That would be lovely.