[Politics] Brexit

[Randy McNob]

Tbf it is about DA not voting for the BREXIT Deal because she hasn’t read the document.

I heard they didn't send out copies in advance, it's deliberate delaying tactics so gives as smallest time possible for parliamentary scrutiny

With respect to Abbott it is a good example of gaslighting, she is portrayed as dim yet Dominic Raab can say he doesn't realise how important the Dover Calais crossing was while Brexit secretary, now Foreign secretary, look at the nonsense from Ian Duncan Smith saying how they didn't need to scrutinise the WA then complained about the wording later, from Gavin Wiliamson, the exam fiasco, failing Grayling and other Tory loons like John Redwood, their Twitter rants and interviews are car crashes. Their staggering incompetence doesn't get called out. Yet they still bang on about Diane Abbott. Slaves they are to the machine......

 

[WATFORD zero]

5 reasons the UK failed in Brexit talks

Tony Blair’s former chief of staff argues the UK has performed disastrously in Brexit negotiations.

December 30, 2020 3:47 pm
Jonathan Powell was Downing Street chief of staff and chief British negotiator in Northern Ireland from 1997-2007.

I have spent the last forty years involved in international negotiations of one sort or another, and I have never seen a British government perform worse than they did in the four years of negotiations that concluded with the Christmas Eve Brexit agreement.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of Brexit, purely in terms of negotiating technique, it is an object lesson in how not to do it. As the bluster and self-congratulation dies down, it is worth standing back and looking at what we can learn from the debacle.


We have ended up with an agreement which is more or less where the EU started. It is true that there have been a few sops to the U.K. position on the dynamic alignment of state aid and the role of the European Court of Justice. But on every major economic point, even including fisheries, the EU has got its way.

There are five principal reasons why.

First, we massively overestimated the strength of our negotiating position. It is true we are equally sovereign as the EU, but we are not sovereign equals. They are much larger, and we depend on them much more for trade than they do on us. That is why we have had to back down every step of the way, accepting EU insistence that we agree the divorce agreement first, putting a trade border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the U.K., accepting a single legal treaty and finally Boris Johnson caving in just before the end-of-year deadline. The same disparity of strength exists with the U.S., and we should bear that in mind during trade negotiations with Washington.

Second, we fired the starting gun before we had worked out our own position, with the result that we spent the first two years negotiating with ourselves while EU chief negotiator Michel Barnier’s clock was ticking. Triggering Article 50 — the legal mechanism that kicked off a time-limited exit process — before we were ready meant we constantly found ourselves facing a self-inflicted deadline by which we had to concede or face severe economic and political costs. We should have waited until we knew what we wanted and only then pulled the trigger rather than blundering in without knowing our desired end point. This was not the fault of the negotiators but of their political leaders.

Third, we prioritized principles of sovereignty over economic interests and put defensive steps protecting a theoretical concept we don’t actually want to use ahead of practical benefits. Sovereignty is a nebulous concept — as the newly-published assessment by the “Star Chamber” of the European Research Group of pro-Brexit Tories unconsciously demonstrates in distinguishing between practical and theoretical sovereignty. In any international agreement, from the NATO treaty to the Good Friday Agreement, a state limits its sovereignty, but it usually does so in return for practical benefits.

With this agreement with the EU, we have done the opposite. We have defended the theoretical possibility of doing things we don’t actually want to do, like lower our environmental standards or support failing industries, in return for giving up measures that would increase our prosperity. So we have spent the last weeks fighting (and losing) over fishing, which represents 0.1 percent of our economy, while accepting that services, which represents 80 percent of our economy and where we have a competitive advantage, is excluded from the agreement. We have therefore ended up with a free-trade agreement which is worse in substantive terms than many others the EU has recently concluded. And we have certainly not secured “no non-tariff barriers,” as Boris Johnson has claimed.

Fourth, trust is fundamental to any successful negotiation. We willfully destroyed the EU’s trust in our commitment to implement what we had already agreed by threatening to unilaterally renege on the Northern Ireland Protocol. No. 10 reportedly thought they could provoke a crisis and thereby give themselves the whip hand as the EU panicked. Instead the EU kept calmly ploughing on and achieved its objectives while we wasted time on silly tactical games. We were forced to back down before we could sign the FTA, so we made no substantive gain, but the price will be paid in the future as we try to negotiate further agreements with the EU on financial services and justice and home affairs issues in the absence of trust.

Fifth, and most unforgivably, we never developed a strategic plan for the negotiations. It is a strange thing — you would never enter into a military or political campaign without a strategy — but the government seemed to think it was alright to turn up for these talks and hope things would work out. As a result we were constantly reacting to EU positions throughout and even agreed to negotiate from an EU text rather than a U.K. one. Unsurprisingly, the agreement ended up being mostly what the EU wanted.

It is worth learning from these failures in negotiation strategy because we are embarking on a series of trade negotiations with countries around the world. If we want to do more than simply replicate existing agreements those countries have with the EU, we are going to have to do a lot better.

And if we think the Brexit negotiations with the EU itself are over, we are about to be sadly disappointed. We are at the beginning of what will be decades of permanent negotiation with our much larger and more powerful neighbor. We do not want our government to make the same mistakes again or we will all pay for it.

https://www.politico.eu/article/5-r..._901KeVoIJ9YX5kVatk--8pR9GaAHcQQPlvlpcjFECIWI

An excellent summary of the negotiations, ready to be analysed and forensically dismantled by our resident Brains Trust

[MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] - I'll post a funny picture
[MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] - I'll laugh at your funny picture
[MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] - but Diane Abbott
[MENTION=534]Chicken Run[/MENTION] - but Mouldy said 'but Diane Abbott'

Or maybe not

 

[Is it PotG?]

an excellent summary of the negotiations, ready to be analysed and forensically dismantled by our resident brains trust

[mention=21401]pastafarian[/mention] - i'll post a funny picture
[mention=33253]jc footy genius[/mention] - i'll laugh at your funny picture
[mention=2719]mouldy boots[/mention] - but diane abbott
[mention=534]chicken run[/mention] - but mouldy said 'but diane abbott'

Or maybe not

hny GAP!

 

[WATFORD zero]

View attachment 131933

hny gap!

Appropriate picture, It's still 2020 JC

 

[Deleted member 2719]

well one thing that won't change in 2021, the usual suspects will still be slaves to the right wing propaganda machine

There is a much nastier left wing propaganda machine Randy, that done their best to get looney Corbyn at the helm of our country.
Fortunately the people that stick their crosses on a paper slip understood the dangerous side of nutters who are still wobbling about in the labour party.

When will captain hindsight actually see this and get rid of them?

He has been slow to act all bluster no substance.
The centre left of labour must feel horrendously let down by Keir.

 

[Deleted member 2719]

An excellent summary of the negotiations, ready to be analysed and forensically dismantled by our resident Brains Trust

[MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] - I'll post a funny picture
[MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] - I'll laugh at your funny picture
[MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] - but Diane Abbott
[MENTION=534]Chicken Run[/MENTION] - but Mouldy said 'but Diane Abbott'

Or maybe not

You really need to let it go Watford.

We are just a few hours away from becoming independent again and the public voted for it democratically.

Take it on the chin and adapt your life if you think it is going to ruin your future or you could just nip on the Eurostar and settle in your chosen home, by purchasing your dream home in Benidorm.

What will in be then Brighton or Benidorm?

 

[Randy McNob]

You really need to let it go Watford.

We are just a few hours away from becoming independent again and the public voted for it democratically.

Take it on the chin and adapt your life if you think it is going to ruin your future or you could just nip on the Eurostar and settle in your chosen home, by purchasing your dream home in Benidorm.

What will in be then Brighton or Benidorm?

You voted for him not to be able to do that

 

[Chicken Run]

A document with 2000 pages passed in one day. I doubt very much if many of the MPs have actually read it. They just do what the party whips tell them to do.

There will be u turns and renegotiations for months and years to come.

[tweet]1344232433185656833[/tweet]

I don’t disagree, so Mouldys post was on the right thread, I’m glad we have cleared that up HNY TB x

 

[Chicken Run]

I heard they didn't send out copies in advance, it's deliberate delaying tactics so gives as smallest time possible for parliamentary scrutiny

With respect to Abbott it is a good example of gaslighting, she is portrayed as dim yet Dominic Raab can say he doesn't realise how important the Dover Calais crossing was while Brexit secretary, now Foreign secretary, look at the nonsense from Ian Duncan Smith saying how they didn't need to scrutinise the WA then complained about the wording later, from Gavin Wiliamson, the exam fiasco, failing Grayling and other Tory loons like John Redwood, their Twitter rants and interviews are car crashes. Their staggering incompetence doesn't get called out. Yet they still bang on about Diane Abbott. Slaves they are to the machine......

I don’t disagree, I was pointing out to Lever/Insert name of his main account, that Mouldys post was on the right thread [emoji3]

 

[Chicken Run]

An excellent summary of the negotiations, ready to be analysed and forensically dismantled by our resident Brains Trust

[MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] - I'll post a funny picture
[MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] - I'll laugh at your funny picture
[MENTION=2719]Mouldy Boots[/MENTION] - but Diane Abbott
[MENTION=534]Chicken Run[/MENTION] - but Mouldy said 'but Diane Abbott'

Or maybe not

#imrattled [emoji6]

 

[Lever]

Tbf it is about DA not voting for the BREXIT Deal because she hasn’t read the document.

Only very loosely..... it was more of a personal popularity poll and some sort of Christmas jape or did you miss that?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Very funny from Gove there. Not as good as Hague was though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ26SmDzxHE

He needs to be careful calling out Starmer for stabbing others in the back though....

That's also my fave. Hague was a consummate parliamentary performer, shame he didn't quite have the all-round game to make a successful leader.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

I am neither for or against anymore, why would I be? I was a remainer as I believed the positives outweighed the negatives, but I am a democrat who believed the vote should be respected, therefore I voted for the blonde buffoon.

You are just crazy if you cannot see the problems coming. There will be positives for the UK, but the long term will be the real judge, not you, or I or anyone else right now.

You really should wind it in sometimes, cos you are in danger of looking very, very silly.

I can deal with that , there's plenty of silly people posting on this thread ,you're entitled to your opinion
Regards
DF

 

[Lever]

I don’t disagree, I was pointing out to Lever/Insert name of his main account, that Mouldys post was on the right thread [emoji3]

Why do you think I have more than one account?
Do you have any evidence for such a random claim or is this mere speculation?
Do you have more than one account? If so why?
I am sure your contortions of logic to confirm Mouldy's comment in this thread are appreciated by someone and worthwhile for you!

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Appropriate picture, It's still 2020 JC

Hey Watford bloke! it's all officially over at 11pm tonight ,that gives you an hour to get your act together to see in a New Dawn for the UK
Regards
DF

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

There is a much nastier left wing propaganda machine Randy, that done their best to get looney Corbyn at the helm of our country.
Fortunately the people that stick their crosses on a paper slip understood the dangerous side of nutters who are still wobbling about in the labour party.

When will captain hindsight actually see this and get rid of them?

He has been slow to act all bluster no substance.
The centre left of labour must feel horrendously let down by Keir.

I think Major Tom's a flakey Liberal
Regards
DF

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The EU doesn’t trust us at all, and why should they, when we have turned out to be so untrustworthy?
Boris doesn’t do details or read the small print!

If we renege on fishing rights, they can close down the gas & electricity lines and cables. Power cuts?

Taking back control indeed. It’s all to be renegotiated again in 2026.

Or ground aviation. The EU have taken back control, it just hasn’t hit Brexiters yet

Ah, I wondered what topic you lot would choose to replace your no-deal hysteria addiction.

Obviously, when we diverge from their regulatory standards or enact state aid they don't like they will shut down our power (a hostile act) or ground flights thus crippling Spain, Greece and others tourism industry over a few fish

 

[Deleted member 2719]

I think Major Tom's a flakey Liberal
Regards
DF

Is that party still going

I knew one once, he couldn't make up his mind on anything, you would offer him a Chocolate hobnob or a plain one, after 5 mins of dithering he had no choice as all the chocolate ones had gone.

Ever since I can only visualise them as plain ditherers.

Will these near-extinct species ever survive this modern world.

 

[Eeyore]

That's also my fave. Hague was a consummate parliamentary performer, shame he didn't quite have the all-round game to make a successful leader.

Always felt he would have been in the top job from his time as, I think, Welsh secretary.

It all happened too early for him.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

In the end the EU fulfilled their objective

a) To protect the European single market

b) To demonstrate to members that life on the outside is harder and pure sovereignty is a myth

You're deluded ! The EU absolutely hate the idea of the UK out of their control and a threat to their trade long term, the old term they need us more than we need them has come home to roost
Regards
DF