[Politics] Brexit

[WATFORD zero]

Get ready to be flamed! The unelected self-styled liberal intelligentsia will be on your case as soon as they wake up. You will be officially thick, old and racist before you can say, 'But ........ '

(That's what remainers think of anyone who disagrees with them, btw. Not that they are prejudiced, or in any way inclined to stereotype people, you understand. Well, you probably don't understand - that sort of stereotyping and bigotry doesn't fit with the values of liberalism and tolerance - but you just have to get used to it and accept that (in their eyes anyway) it does). Funny old world.............

When I looked up these phrases a few weeks ago, the majority of instances were from [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] and [MENTION=17103]Mo Gosfield[/MENTION], moaning about being called these things here and here.

I really can't be arsed to look again, but I suspect that the number of posts with people whining about being called those things are far greater than any original insults using those terms.

I can imagine some posters on this thread even using the term 'snowflake' but of course, I wouldn't lower myself to insults

 

[sparkie]

What a great post. Really stands out on this thread by offering a positive about Brexit.

Thoroughly refreshing.

I would be feeling much more confident about the whole thing with a bit more of this king of thinking and expression doing the round.

No coincidence that this disgraceful thread has had a relative upturn since the pink fairy has been banned from NSC for a month.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Late arrival to this thread.

I’ve been involved in the acquisition of French and Belgian companies and their employment laws immobilise their economies. We had people in the company on relatively average salaries on their “committee” asking for €700k for 5 years of work to “distribute” with their colleagues as severance. Is it any wonder that it stifles entrepreneurship - a French word? This debate is a bit deeper than fishing rights.

Is it a good idea to align with a 27 country voting system? When you look at this in the context of a very big global recession (which is about to happen) due to successive over-borrowing, I think it’s a good idea to get out of Europe. The battles we are seeing are short term. It also makes our government totally accountable with no excuses.

Also the European Commission isn’t entirely democratic.

So there’s my gentle opening gambit.

X

Welcome to the thread! Contrary to the views of some of our Brexiteer friends, many of us 'on the other side' welcome contributions to the debate, especially, as with yours, they go beyond repeating 'tick tock'/''on our way' ad nauseum. And you've given succour to some who might well see you as our very own standard bearer for reasonable Leavers.

On the specifics of your post

1. The point you make about Belgian and French companies is interesting but I'm not convinced of its relevance. After all, the UK (notwithstanding its unsuccessful attempt to slide out of the requirements of the Social Chapter) has always has a lot of latitude with respect to its employment laws. and as we are one of the most unequal countries in Europe I'm not sure that we can make many valid points about pampered executives in other countries.

2.On the impending global recession/debt issue and whether we should be tethered to 27 other countries, this is a valid point. However, the EU survived the last global crisis and - on a simple level - there could well be safety in numbers. I don't think anyone knows how this will play out.

3. I think we all agree that the UK govt will no longer be able to avoid accountability. But that won't stop them trying.

4. With respect to the European Commission's lack of democracy, I'm not sure that there is a civil service anywhere on the planet that is directly elected. And given that our own country appears to be run by Mr Cummings who is neither elected not constrained by a civil service code, I'm not sure we are in a position to be an exemplar of accountability.

Cheers.

 

[Blue3]

The economically inactive will include people retired but still of working age, stay at home parents, those caring for an elderly or sick relative, students and those with enough personal wealth to choose not to work. Basically, those that either can't take a job at the moment or don't want to and don't need to. Not much chance of getting a significant number of these people into jobs.

Indeed I am one of the 8 million having been in continued payed employment for 43 years I choose to retire earlier than the state pension, I am aware how very lucky to be able to afford it and that future generations will in all likelihood not have the same option.

Will I go back to work........... No............ Well not for a paid job

 

[WATFORD zero]

No coincidence that this disgraceful thread has had a relative upturn since the pink fairy has been banned from NSC for a month.

Only in as much as it has slightly less crap posted on it. I have to say, I actually find Ppf quite amusing on here as he writes numerous posts, seconds apart, in a frenzied, pathetic attempt to get anyone, anywhere to acknowledge his sad existence.

And then, even funnier as his half page of posts gets totally ignored and everyone carries on the same debates ignoring his childish ramblings completely and his posts disappear gently into the depths

 

[BadFish]

Welcome to the thread! Contrary to the views of some of our Brexiteer friends, many of us 'on the other side' welcome contributions to the debate, especially, as with yours, they go beyond repeating 'tick tock'/''on our way' ad nauseum. And you've given succour to some who might well see you as our very own standard bearer for reasonable Leavers.

On the specifics of your post

1. The point you make about Belgian and French companies is interesting but I'm not convinced of its relevance. After all, the UK (notwithstanding its unsuccessful attempt to slide out of the requirements of the Social Chapter) has always has a lot of latitude with respect to its employment laws. and as we are one of the most unequal countries in Europe I'm not sure that we can make many valid points about pampered executives in other countries.

2.On the impending global recession/debt issue and whether we should be tethered to 27 other countries, this is a valid point. However, the EU survived the last global crisis and - on a simple level - there could well be safety in numbers. I don't think anyone knows how this will play out.

3. I think we all agree that the UK govt will no longer be able to avoid accountability. But that won't stop them trying.

4. With respect to the European Commission's lack of democracy, I'm not sure that there is a civil service anywhere on the planet that is directly elected. And given that our own country appears to be run by Mr Cummings who is neither elected not constrained by a civil service code, I'm not sure we are in a position to be an exemplar of accountability.

Cheers.

I think that with the help of their right wing media the UK government will find a new scapegoat to blame in order to avoid accountability. I believe that the Labour Party, EU (perhaps even more so now), Immigrants, etc etc will prove more than enough for their supporters to turn a blind eye.

Hopefully if things go tits up enough scales will fall.

 

[mikeyjh]

One of the big selling points was the transition from unfettered EU immigration to the 'best and the brightest' hype. Some of us realised it was bollox at the time; some of us didn't. Some of the latter might now be changing their minds but if not let's hear a robust defence for the new system...…………...Over to you, guys.

PS I should add that just about every organisation representing businesses/employers have come out against this. Not because they are ideologically opposed but because they see the practical implications.

Quite - I am staggered that anyone in Brighton could perceive this as good news. How many young Europeans work in the tourist industry in the city? Where do they think Amex get the hundreds of multi lingual young people that work in the city? Take those people out, what happens the economy, what happens to the city centre?

 

[A1X]

Having reviewed the immigration laws as proposed it seems strange that the Government thinks that only low skilled, low paid jobs can be done by British people while leaving the more high-skilled, high-earning jobs open to immigrants. And I thought it was us Remoaners who "talked Britain down", the Government has basically admitted we're all unskilled drones.

 

[Baldseagull]

It's not like it hasn't been warned. Attacking the policy on the basis of racism and xenophobia doesn't help either.

Those pulling the strings (not Boris, I'm sure he understands it) want to change the economy into a Singapore style one. No conspiracy, they have spoken openly about it.

Immigration is a major part of it and Boris behind the scenes under May was lobbying for Freedom of Movement. Those voting for Brexit / Tories to limit immigration have effectively been bought and tossed to one side.

This is not a points system at all. A points system allows "value" to be applied to a prospective immigrant's qualifications when they haven't got a job now, but the economy requires their skills. It's there to encourage a particularly form of immigration.

This system is completely the opposite - it's based on salary with no stipulation on the type of role. They have just cynically called it a points system but awarding points to the salary.

Fooled ? I'm not.

Unfortunately many have been.

If you read their actual document, they respond to fears about low skilled workers by suggesting

1) Many EU low skilled immigrants have come here already with more to follow before the rules kick in.
2) We're gonna allow enough skilled workers in, so their husbands/wives can pick up the slack.

Nothing in there about this "invisible non-economic workforce", because that doesn't fit in with the truth.

I think it is a fairly liberal immigration policy, for all those that voted leave so they could have a tough immigration policy, it is going to be a surprise when they realise what they have got.

 

[Baldseagull]

Late arrival to this thread.

I’ve been involved in the acquisition of French and Belgian companies and their employment laws immobilise their economies. We had people in the company on relatively average salaries on their “committee” asking for €700k for 5 years of work to “distribute” with their colleagues as severance. Is it any wonder that it stifles entrepreneurship - a French word? This debate is a bit deeper than fishing rights.

Is it a good idea to align with a 27 country voting system? When you look at this in the context of a very big global recession (which is about to happen) due to successive over-borrowing, I think it’s a good idea to get out of Europe. The battles we are seeing are short term. It also makes our government totally accountable with no excuses.

Also the European Commission isn’t entirely democratic.

So there’s my gentle opening gambit.

X

No question about whether there are issues with the EU as it is, the level of democracy in the EU compared to the UK Parliament is questionable, we are a monarchy with an unelected second chamber, which is the house some of our current cabinet ministers have been selected from by Johnson. Dominic Cummings seems to have a pivotal role in the current Government, which may be a good or a bad thing, but it is not democratic.

French and Belgian employment law may be too much in favour of the employee, Macron was trying to change this in France, but clearly we don't have those same laws as members, so I don't see the relevance to the UK as a member of the EU with the ability to have differing employment law? France has a similar size population and a similar size GDP to the UK, so either their laws are not as immobilising as you think, or the UK has other issues holding it back, perhaps employees not feeling quite so secure in their employment is not good for performance.

I don't think a very big global recession is going to be easier to handle as the UK alone than as part of the EU, can you explain how you think it will be?

 

[A1X]

Also the European Commission isn’t entirely democratic.

 

[Baldseagull]

What a great post. Really stands out on this thread by offering a positive about Brexit.

Thoroughly refreshing.

I would be feeling much more confident about the whole thing with a bit more of this king of thinking and expression doing the round.

I missed the positive, what was it?

 

[Simster]

Get ready to be flamed! The unelected self-styled liberal intelligentsia will be on your case as soon as they wake up. You will be officially thick, old and racist before you can say, 'But ........ '

(That's what remainers think of anyone who disagrees with them, btw. Not that they are prejudiced, or in any way inclined to stereotype people, you understand. Well, you probably don't understand - that sort of stereotyping and bigotry doesn't fit with the values of liberalism and tolerance - but you just have to get used to it and accept that (in their eyes anyway) it does). Funny old world.............

You really are a drip.

I'm fairly sure most of the liberal intelligentsia on here will engage with some of those points raised as some of them are well made. Certainly a lot more worthy than your tedious and constant "woe is me" bellendery.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Having reviewed the immigration laws as proposed it seems strange that the Government thinks that only low skilled, low paid jobs can be done by British people while leaving the more high-skilled, high-earning jobs open to immigrants. And I thought it was us Remoaners who "talked Britain down", the Government has basically admitted we're all unskilled drones.

And it will lead to a reduction in the “brightest and the best” from Europe. Why bother with all the expensive red-tape when you can go somewhere else in the EU without the hassle? It’s gonna be shits and giggles when a load of Pakis and Chinks* turn up in Stoke to do the tech for Bet365

* obviously not my words.

 

[vegster]

Only in as much as it has slightly less crap posted on it. I have to say, I actually find Ppf quite amusing on here as he writes numerous posts, seconds apart, in a frenzied, pathetic attempt to get anyone, anywhere to acknowledge his sad existence.

And then, even funnier as his half page of posts gets totally ignored and everyone carries on the same debates ignoring his childish ramblings completely and his posts disappear gently into the depths [emoji38]ol:

I have had him on ignore for a couple of years now, amazing how much crap I have avoided.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Quite - I am staggered that anyone in Brighton could perceive this as good news. How many young Europeans work in the tourist industry in the city? Where do they think Amex get the hundreds of multi lingual young people that work in the city? Take those people out, what happens the economy, what happens to the city centre?

This could well explain why none of the Brexit fanboys took up my invitation to 'sell' the policy. In terms of Brighton, it was of course an petty strong Remain city anyway and I wonder to what extent our 'local' Leavers were driven by the immigration issue - say, as compared with the likes of Lincolnshire Leavers. But there I go again - a typical Remainer trying to see the opposition's point of view, just like they always say we are!

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

And it will lead to a reduction in the “brightest and the best” from Europe. Why bother with all the expensive red-tape when you can go somewhere else in the EU without the hassle? It’s gonna be shits and giggles when a load of Pakis and Chinks* turn up in Stoke to do the tech for Bet365

* obviously not my words.

I think it's the 'hostile environment' as much as the red tape that will be the turn-off. There's nowt so welcoming as being told you're not welcome!

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I think it's the 'hostile environment' as much as the red tape that will be the turn-off. There's nowt so welcoming as being told you're not welcome!

This

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Or this?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So, talk me trough the real implications of a 'no-deal' Brexit.

Please walk me through the implications of a 'no-deal' Brexit.

What do you consider short term, and what are your views on a 'no-deal' brexit' and how will a world recession affect the UK amid the current cluster****?

Not sure how your response has anything to do with my post. Be careful, you're becoming a parrot much like Watford zero ! Who's saying there will be a 'no-deal' Brexit anyway ?