[Politics] Brexit

[Lever]

But that's the point I think. I get involved in 'disputes' all the time, and both sides can respect the views of the other side, whilst not necessarily agreeing with them - but this is all predicated on them understanding the other side's point of view. The trouble is here that Remainers can't, by and large, understand the Leavers' reasons for still wanting to leave (other than 'we voted for it') - and part of that is because none of the Leavers on here actually explain their reasons with simplicity or coherence.

Exactly right..... and none of them has made a convincing case based on the facts.
All of the rhetoric is just different versions of 'we won, you lost, get over it' and then claiming the referendum was a mandate for a 'No Deal' Brexit which is a fundamental lie.

 

[WATFORD zero]

[/B]

Exactly right..... and none of them have made a convincing case based on the facts.
All of the rhetoric is just different versions of 'we won, you lost, get over it' and then claiming the referendum was a mandate for a 'No Deal' Brexit which is a fundamental lie.

To be fair, Blue Valkyrie, Gwylan and Triggaaar have all made cases for leaving the EU whilst staying in the Single Market/Customs Union/EFTA which, whilst I don't agree with them, are reasonable, implementable solutions.

But I can't remember any others ever putting forward any case.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Quick question for all these people in the know about hiring a car overseas.

Can’t seem to get a definitive answer anywhere, but if we leave on the 31st without ( or even with a deal it appears) as an EU spokesman said this morning that a “ deal” was not a carte Blanche to carry on as we are now, can you still use your uk/ eu driving license to hire a car? We are off to Spain Sunday week for a week and one of the guys at the golf club who lives over half the year there has been told he has to have a “ permit” to drive in each EU country.

So can we only hire a Car to the 31st on my driving license? There doesn’t seem to, be anything setting it all out as to what hire car companies are expecting. I can’t believe they will not allow any UK to hire cars after the 31st in Spain. Especially as most people do this at least a couple of days of the holiday.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Ignore the above

https://www.rentalcars.com/en/guides/licence-paperwork/hiring-car-brexit/

Do carry on abusing eachother.

 

[Bodian]

The EFTA pillar of the EEA comes with sovereign consent for laws and regulations, whereas the EU pillar leaves us at the mercy of laws imposed by EU Qualified Majority Voting. Sure, there are battles ahead to join EFTA, and then to opt for EEA access as now, however the eventual prize is a relationship with the EU like Switzerland - but we need to get the future deal right.

Thanks - if all exchanges on this thread were polite and discursive, it would be less painful to read.

I take your point about the voting - what you're saying is that ultimately it would be down to us whether or not to adopt a specific law or regulation. But when I looked at this some time ago, it seemed that this was pretty much the case in most instances anyway. I got the feeling that no EU laws had actually been 'imposed' upon the UK. That is, we'd either suggested them ourselves, voted in favour of them, or happily incorporated them into our own legal system when voted into effect in the EU even where we weren't initially very keen.

 

[Dave the OAP]

Thanks - if all exchanges on this thread were polite and discursive, it would be less painful to read.

I take your point about the voting - what you're saying is that ultimately it would be down to us whether or not to adopt a specific law or regulation. But when I looked at this some time ago, it seemed that this was pretty much the case in most instances anyway. I got the feeling that no EU laws had actually been 'imposed' upon the UK. That is, we'd either suggested them ourselves, voted in favour of them, or happily incorporated them into our own legal system when voted into effect in the EU even where we weren't initially very keen.

I though the government ( and actually opposition’s) stance was to transfer all European laws in British statute on bloc and that was all the panic in May’ tenure that we wouldn’t have time with a fixed date that is not 10 years in the future and allow parliament and the lords to review all laws. ( my ex colleague is a lawyer in town and that is all he has been doing for the last 2 years and he is making stupid money out of it)

Certainly Labour want the employment laws to come over 100%. Even the European working time directive that Rees Mogg wants repealed as soon as possible....I wonder why?

 

[Lever]

To be fair, Blue Valkyrie, Gwylan and Triggaaar have all made cases for leaving the EU whilst staying in the Single Market/Customs Union/EFTA which, whilst I don't agree with them, are reasonable, implementable solutions.

But I can't remember any others ever putting forward any case.

Right....
I will take another look at their posts!

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Thanks - if all exchanges on this thread were polite and discursive, it would be less painful to read.

I take your point about the voting - what you're saying is that ultimately it would be down to us whether or not to adopt a specific law or regulation. But when I looked at this some time ago, it seemed that this was pretty much the case in most instances anyway. I got the feeling that no EU laws had actually been 'imposed' upon the UK. That is, we'd either suggested them ourselves, voted in favour of them, or happily incorporated them into our own legal system when voted into effect in the EU even where we weren't initially very keen.

Yes, it would be down to us. Although it all happens earlier in the process. The proposals are agreed with consent between EFTA members and the EU - and genuine consent, not token.

However, if a country is in the EU, then the the EU position is determined by Qualified Majority Voting, and if the member country is outvoted then too bad - it has to take the law. Which is the problem, as some see it, now.

A lot of these laws I suspect don't really matter in practice to 'the individual in the street', but nevertheless they are imposed - and when thinking about that, to me it seems a bad thing. And they feed unfortunately into the 'unelected bureaucrat' narratives.

 

[Ecosse Exile]

Apologies if this has already been discussed. There is a guy on youtube, Jeff Taylor (not easy to watch as he comes across as reading from an autocue, and not very well, better than Donald Trump though ) claims he has found the loophole that Boris will use to leave with no deal.

He refers to article 51 of the Vienna convention act on treaties, which apparently Britain signed up to in 1971.

Article 51:
Coercion of a representative of state.

The expression of a states consent to be bound by a treaty which has been procured by the coercion of the representative through acts or threats directed against him shall be without any legal effect.

Just wondered if anyone can shed any light on this?
Is it real or have i fallen for some made up bullshit?
If it is real, Johnson is being coerced to act against his wishes, but he isn't being coerced in the manor that i am sure this article 51 would have been set up to protect against, i.e. Having a gun pointed at his head. He is being threatened through the legal system due to the Benn act.
He will be acting against his own wishes, but not against the wishes of parliament, so does this Article 51 carry any weight? Could it be the loophole that Johnson and his advisers are acting so smugly about when insisting we will leave on October 31st?

 

[Simster]

Apologies if this has already been discussed. There is a guy on youtube, Jeff Taylor (not easy to watch as he comes across as reading from an autocue, and not very well, better than Donald Trump though ) claims he has found the loophole that Boris will use to leave with no deal.

He refers to article 51 of the Vienna convention act on treaties, which apparently Britain signed up to in 1971.

Article 51:
Coercion of a representative of state.

The expression of a states consent to be bound by a treaty which has been procured by the coercion of the representative through acts or threats directed against him shall be without any legal effect.

Just wondered if anyone can shed any light on this?
Is it real or have i fallen for some made up bullshit?
If it is real, Johnson is being coerced to act against his wishes, but he isn't being coerced in the manor that i am sure this article 51 would have been set up to protect against, i.e. Having a gun pointed at his head. He is being threatened through the legal system due to the Benn act.
He will be acting against his own wishes, but not against the wishes of parliament, so does this Article 51 carry any weight? Could it be the loophole that Johnson and his advisers are acting so smugly about when insisting we will leave on October 31st?

I'm no legal expert but I doubt it. He tried to prevent a democratically elected parliament from doing its job by shutting it down. That's not really coercion as far as I can see. The only reason that he is smugly talking about Oct 31st is because he only got elected by saying that was what he was going to do. We won't be leaving on October 31st without a deal, and actually that is the only reason he is now scurrying around trying to secure one. I doubt he will get anything done though - he's left it far too late because it wasn't originally in his plan to bother to go back with any new serious proposals.

 

[Ecosse Exile]

Quick question for all these people in the know about hiring a car overseas.

Can’t seem to get a definitive answer anywhere, but if we leave on the 31st without ( or even with a deal it appears) as an EU spokesman said this morning that a “ deal” was not a carte Blanche to carry on as we are now, can you still use your uk/ eu driving license to hire a car? We are off to Spain Sunday week for a week and one of the guys at the golf club who lives over half the year there has been told he has to have a “ permit” to drive in each EU country.

So can we only hire a Car to the 31st on my driving license? There doesn’t seem to, be anything setting it all out as to what hire car companies are expecting. I can’t believe they will not allow any UK to hire cars after the 31st in Spain. Especially as most people do this at least a couple of days of the holiday.

I would imagine your friend has been mis-informed, i haven't heard anyone here in Spain discussing this and there are plenty of people who regularly hire cars rather than own them. Perhaps in the future this could be the case, but not yet i wouldn't have thought.

 

[Albion my Albion]

What is this thread called "Am I the only one never to have gone on the Brexit thread?"?

 

[Dave the OAP]

I would imagine your friend has been mis-informed, i haven't heard anyone here in Spain discussing this and there are plenty of people who regularly hire cars rather than own them. Perhaps in the future this could be the case, but not yet i wouldn't have thought.

Dunno

He was told to apply for permits as he drives home from Spain through France and then UK on a regular basis.

Oh sorry I answered the wrong question...the link says that Spain doesn’t require the extra paperwork.

 

[Baldseagull]

i think the trouble is not recognising that for a large proportion of leave voters "we voted for it" is reason enough. the issue has become about the vote as much as subject of the vote.

I can't think of one other situation where anyone who made a choice, then the option they chose was revealed to be quite different and lesser than what was chosen, and they would not want to take a moment to rethink. I do believe that Leavers would want a second referendum if they felt that a leave option would be chosen, particularly if they felt that their preferred option would win.
I believe those Leavers that want to avoid a second referendum, do so not through a devotion to a democratic principle, but because they fear they could lose it. That is avoiding a democratic moment to rethink.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson didn't bow his head to The Queen at the state opening of parliament just now. I'm outraged! I'm so offended too! It's a disgrace! He should be ashamed of himself! This outrageous show of disrespect to Her Majesty will be on the front page of The Sun, The Mail and The Express tomorrow morning and rightly so...................except it won't be, because that only happened at the last one in 2017 because JEREMY CORBYN followed convention and didn't bow his head to her, so the right wing press had to whip their gammon and broflake readership up into a frenzy about a nothing story.

 

[dingodan]

But that's the point I think. I get involved in 'disputes' all the time, and both sides can respect the views of the other side, whilst not necessarily agreeing with them - but this is all predicated on them understanding the other side's point of view. The trouble is here that Remainers can't, by and large, understand the Leavers' reasons for still wanting to leave (other than 'we voted for it') - and part of that is because none of the Leavers on here actually explain their reasons with simplicity or coherence.

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing by simply agreeing with the original post that the only reason you have is 'we voted for it so we must leave'

This basically sums up the situation. One word: Intransigence.

According to those on here who want to remain, people who want to leave have no reason to want to leave. Those of us who want to leave have explained countless times why we want to leave. We are consistently met with a deliberately obtuse response.

Just consider for a moment that what you are doing is saying that 17.4 million people voted to leave the EU, the numbers who wanted to leave vs remain continue to be basically the same, and yet those who want to leave have no reason. Think about that.

So many of you simply cannot bring yourselves to listen, hear, understand, acknowledge, and then respecfully hold a different opinion. Your answer is always simply that you have no idea what we are talking about.

You act like the playground bully who grabs another kid by the arm and uses it to hit him, the whole time asking, "why are you hitting yourself? Stop hitting yourself!"

You put your hands over your ears and yell "I can't hear what you are saying, speak up". You cover your eyes and say "Nope, sorry, can't see it".

It has long become pointless to engage with you.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

An historic right ? Why do we need criminals from Romania , Albania taking the piss in this country
regards
DF

Perhaps people don't engage with you enough, so may I ask you a straightforward and direct question?

How do you think leaving the EU will help reduce the number of Romanian and Albanian criminals in this country? Specifically, what mechanism will be used to keep them out?

 

[kemptown kid]

An historic right ? Why do we need criminals from Romania , Albania taking the piss in this country
regards
DF

Don't really want criminals taking the piss wherever they are from.

Albania not in the EU, btw.

Freedom of movement - an historic right, literally, in that we have had the right for some time, also, a 'historic' right and privilege to have lived in a period of peace, freedom and relative harmony amongst countries that waged two brutal wars and a prolonged 'cold war' in the last century.

 

[Baldseagull]

Thanks - if all exchanges on this thread were polite and discursive, it would be less painful to read.

I take your point about the voting - what you're saying is that ultimately it would be down to us whether or not to adopt a specific law or regulation. But when I looked at this some time ago, it seemed that this was pretty much the case in most instances anyway. I got the feeling that no EU laws had actually been 'imposed' upon the UK. That is, we'd either suggested them ourselves, voted in favour of them, or happily incorporated them into our own legal system when voted into effect in the EU even where we weren't initially very keen.

Very few are imposed by a majority vote, and by and large I think most people in the UK would be glad they were when you look at them. Last time I looked the most recent objection UK had lost was in reducing the PPM of particulates allowable in clean air, i.e. we wanted to keep a higher level and therefore poorer air quality allowable. I am pretty sure every law passed in the HoC is objected to by some MP or other, majority voting seems fair to me, and as one of the larger nations, we have a larger say than most in the EU system.

 

[kemptown kid]

Very few are imposed by a majority vote, and by and large I think most people in the UK would be glad they were when you look at them. Last time I looked the most recent objection UK had lost was in reducing the PPM of particulates allowable in clean air, i.e. we wanted to keep a higher level and therefore poorer air quality allowable. I am pretty sure every law passed in the HoC is objected to by some MP or other, majority voting seems fair to me, and as one of the larger nations, we have a larger say than most in