[Politics] Brexit

[soistes]

Another one here for everyone I know is voting IN including all my colleagues, friends and family. Does seem to be one or the other.

Same here - I've not met a single person who says they will vote to leave: at work, socially or among relatives. All say they will vote for IN.
I suppose, though, that there's a real possibility that some people are embarrassed to identify themselves with the OUT camp (because of its association with UKIP, being against migration etc). Similarly, I've hardly ever met anyone who's admitted to voting Tory, but there a lot of them out there, so again it could be an embarrassment factor.

 

[Hamilton]

The hole point is we are NOT Europeans we are British!!

'Holey' shit!

We clearly need some sort of Common Educational Policy.

Last time I looked, we were part of the continent of Europe. Or are you proposing that the UK apply for some sort of unique 'Continent' status?

 

[BigGully]

The currency and the single market are two completely separate things, so listing the benefits of the single market simply wouldn't make any sense as an argument/logic to join the Euro.

Or were you just jumping to a massive generalisation because that's easier when you're in the anti-EU camp?

I was quite happy to join, if it offered greater prosperity and I listened to all the usual big hitters and the benefits seemed endless, are you telling me you had no intention of wanting to join the Euro, if so prey tell why you were so bloody clever and this old cynic might have fell for it

Why should we listen to those that wanted to join on the debate on Remain, lets dig out those that reasonably argued not to join, they seem to be the only ones with any real credibility.

 

[5ways]

The In people I've spoken to just give the impression of liking the status quo of it all without any real thought about it.

The EU is just one big bureaucratic non elected failure. Have they done anything that has been a success? Literally anything that has bettered all our lives?

From the other thread:
What has the EU ever done for us?


57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking,
arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

Keep the peace for 60 years.
Help usher post-soviet states into democracy and freedom - and serve as a model for others.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The currency and the single market are two completely separate things, so listing the benefits of the single market simply wouldn't make any sense as an argument/logic to join the Euro.

Or were you just jumping to a massive generalisation because that's easier when you're in the anti-EU camp?

It's called being realistic thinking ahead. Fast forward x years to a point in the future where we have a government who are generally Europhile but our economy is struggling while Europe is apparently doing better .. sort of the reverse of present day. Is it not likely that a scenario could develop where the Euro is presented as a vital solution for our economic recovery backed by of course big business + the European establishment? Or do you think we can resist the drive to ever closer union indefinitely?

 

[binky]

Valid arguments on both sides of the debate so far in this thread.

However, it is worth pointing out that while OUT, or LEAVE is fairly obvious and self explanatory, REMAIN, is using language in a way likely to affect our judgement.

The fact is, that the REMAIN arguments are predicated on staying in the EU as we are now, trading with the EU as we do now, maintaining our relationship with the EU, AS IT IS NOW.
This will not be the case.

The Lisbon treaty makes it very clear that the direction of the EU is further, and accelerating political and economic integration.
If we vote to REMAIN, then we will be subject to that push towards integration.
We are not special. We will not be able to maintain any of Cameron's negotiated differences in our relationship. (Look what happened to Blair's agreement with the EU to reform CAP in return for losing Thatchers hard won rebate).

Those voting to remain are not voting to remain in our current situation.
They will be voting to be a part of an ever accelerating and integrated union of countries, where the logical conclusion is a European superstate.

I don't think the remain camp have been entirely honest about this.

--
Sorry about the capitals. I had an ERNEST moment
But seriously, I wanted to try and emphasize how the word "remain", is being used manipulatively, to indicate a status-quo. Perhaps ADVANCE, or PLUNGE, or even SUBSUME, would be a more accurate word for the camp who would stay yoked to Brussels.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

after heading the comprehensive literature provided by hm government, even more in than ever. If you are buying a house don't exchange till 24/6 just incase...

oh dear how about reading it.......... ENOUGH SAID
regards
DR

 

[JC Footy Genius]

As you know, I started out inclined to vote 'in', but late in the evening after I've had a few, I get the urge to vote 'out'. In some respects this probably sums up how I feel about it all. I'm not a 'patriotic European' who 'loves my Continent'. But I feel like voting 'out' only when I'm feeling a bit reckless.

As I scanned down your list of reasons, I largely felt 'meh'. Till I read the bit about being bullied into adopting the Euro. Then I laughed. That is NEVER going to happen. That or PPF posting a three sentence message to the good people of NSC - in French.

I agree with you that we are not dealing with immigration properly, but I don't see how leaving will help. Yes we would be able to 'control' things, but we will still need Kent to be AWASH with East Europeans or the fruit will rot (I know, I live in the Garden of England). And as has been said many times, the Frech think they are doing us a massive favour by allowing us to man the frontier in Calais, parking the punters in pursuit of British social security in French fields. That will all go if we flounce off, and the border will move to points north (Dover, Newhaven, Ramsgate, etc).

Everything else is just guesswork, and I need a MASSIVE reason to gamble on change being the answer. I'd no more guess that change is the thing in this instance than I would bet money on anything by way of gambling (when sober). I'm a vicar, not a bookie, to steal the terminology of an excellent political journalist whose name escapes me.

I think you are trusting your gut, here, and retrofilling a logical justification as best you can. Good try, though. I will probably warm to your persuasion after I have dipped into my wine lake, later this evening. And (to misquote Churchill) in the morning, I'll be sober again.

I gave it a good try HWt, came at you from all angles, thought the £13 Billion for the NHS/Steel works might have got you .... but I won't stop trying, sober or drunk.

 

[binky]

...Oh yes... I'm an OUT, and will remain so until the IN camp come up with a single positive argument for staying in, as opposed to the constant barrage of negative reasons for leaving.

 

[KingstonSeagull]

...Oh yes... I'm an OUT, and will remain so until the IN camp come up with a single positive argument for staying in, as opposed to the constant barrage of negative reasons for leaving.

Huge amount of fear mongering and one sided arguments from In. However, havent seen any argument from Out really.. Think they need to step up their game.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Valid arguments on both sides of the debate so far in this thread.

However, it is worth pointing out that while OUT, or LEAVE is fairly obvious and self explanatory, REMAIN, is using language in a way likely to affect our judgement.

The fact is, that the REMAIN arguments are predicated on staying in the EU as we are now, trading with the EU as we do now, maintaining our relationship with the EU, AS IT IS NOW.
This will not be the case.

The Lisbon treaty makes it very clear that the direction of the EU is further, and accelerating political and economic integration.
If we vote to REMAIN, then we will be subject to that push towards integration.
We are not special. We will not be able to maintain any of Cameron's negotiated differences in our relationship. (Look what happened to Blair's agreement with the EU to reform CAP in return for losing Thatchers hard won rebate).

Those voting to remain are not voting to remain in our current situation.
They will be voting to be a part of an ever accelerating and integrated union of countries, where the logical conclusion is a European superstate.

I don't think the remain camp have been entirely honest about this.

--
Sorry about the capitals. I had an ERNEST moment
But seriously, I wanted to try and emphasize how the word "remain", is being used manipulatively, to indicate a status-quo. Perhaps ADVANCE, or PLUNGE, or even SUBSUME, would be a more accurate word for the camp who would stay yoked to Brussels.

this all day long
regards
DR

 

[Hamilton]

I used to work for Capita - biggest outsourcer in the UK. Yet we did very little business with any businesses within the EU. India, USA, Australia and even South Africa but bugger all with the EU. So given Capita employ 60k+ people which of their jobs will be lost ? It's a smokescreen or even a down right lie.

I don't know what you did at Capita, but as you know, they are spread across a number of markets. Capita are a client of mine and structure their business along regional and geographical lines. The chances are you were working within the UK organisation focused on outsourced jobs within the UK. Capita's European operation is quite significant and employs people in all countries across Europe.

Capita applies this model globally, so you'll find people working inside geographies and across regions everywhere. Whilst the UK is the largest market, they are seeking to grow, but will look to their stable UK cash cow to support that growth. Their biggest markets are Germany, Switzerland and Poland in Europe - I think.

In terms of the nature of Capita's work, as you'll know it is based on running services for governments or for other large businesses e.g. the Her Majesty's Prisons, Traffic light maintenance, BP's, GSK's etc. They are reliant on the success of those sectors for work. As those sectors see profits squeezed then they will turn to outsourcing first - albeit it with heavily screwed down contracts. They then make money by keeping overheads low and still meeting service level agreements - that means low pay where possible.

So, they are reliant on businesses performing well in growing economies to make their money. It's all circular isn't it.

 

[DTES]

Why should we listen to those that wanted to join on the debate on Remain

Well, you could just ignore then because they were wrong before. We've all been wrong before though, so seems a bit daft.

lets dig out those that reasonably argued not to join, they seem to be the only ones with any real credibility.

Well our own Prime Minister & Chancellor fall in this camp, I'd imagine. I don't remember David Cameron - or any Tories - calling for us to join the Euro, but they're at the head of the Remain camp now. They're hardly the minority.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

well, you could just ignore then because they were wrong before. We've all been wrong before though, so seems a bit daft.



Well our own prime minister & chancellor fall in this camp, i'd imagine. I don't remember david cameron - or any tories - calling for us to join the euro, but they're at the head of the remain camp now. They're hardly the minority.

no, Ted heath did
regards
DR

 

[DTES]

Valid arguments on both sides of the debate so far in this thread.

However, it is worth pointing out that while OUT, or LEAVE is fairly obvious and self explanatory, REMAIN, is using language in a way likely to affect our judgement.

The fact is, that the REMAIN arguments are predicated on staying in the EU as we are now, trading with the EU as we do now, maintaining our relationship with the EU, AS IT IS NOW.
This will not be the case

...

Not really. Those advocating LEAVE are all over the place with what they say we're voting for. "We'll be like Norway", "We'll be like Switzerland", "We'll be like Canada", "We're Britain, we'll be unique and have our own deals". I think it's as clear as mud what a leave vote would actually be voting for.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

'Holey' shit!

We clearly need some sort of Common Educational Policy.

Last time I looked, we were part of the continent of Europe. Or are you proposing that the UK apply for some sort of unique 'Continent' status?

YES BY LEAVING THE EU, people like you just want this country sold down the swanny
regards
DR

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Not really. Those advocating LEAVE are all over the place with what they say we're voting for. "We'll be like Norway", "We'll be like Switzerland", "We'll be like Canada", "We're Britain, we'll be unique and have our own deals". I think it's as clear as mud what a leave vote would actually be voting for.

YOU SOUND LIKE A TURN COAT
regards
DR

 

[Hamilton]

Valid arguments on both sides of the debate so far in this thread.

However, it is worth pointing out that while OUT, or LEAVE is fairly obvious and self explanatory, REMAIN, is using language in a way likely to affect our judgement.

The fact is, that the REMAIN arguments are predicated on staying in the EU as we are now, trading with the EU as we do now, maintaining our relationship with the EU, AS IT IS NOW.
This will not be the case.

The Lisbon treaty makes it very clear that the direction of the EU is further, and accelerating political and economic integration.
If we vote to REMAIN, then we will be subject to that push towards integration.
We are not special. We will not be able to maintain any of Cameron's negotiated differences in our relationship. (Look what happened to Blair's agreement with the EU to reform CAP in return for losing Thatchers hard won rebate).

Those voting to remain are not voting to remain in our current situation.
They will be voting to be a part of an ever accelerating and integrated union of countries, where the logical conclusion is a European superstate.

I don't think the remain camp have been entirely honest about this.

--
Sorry about the capitals. I had an ERNEST moment
But seriously, I wanted to try and emphasize how the word "remain", is being used manipulatively, to indicate a status-quo. Perhaps ADVANCE, or PLUNGE, or even SUBSUME, would be a more accurate word for the camp who would stay yoked to Brussels.

I'm arguing for REMAIN, so if I'm using language that affects judgment negatively then personally, I apologise.

If I do so, it's because I don't see the implications of an OUT vote as simple black and white stuff. For me, the EU provides us with access to a market that greatly stimulates our economy. We've created an incredibly flexible market in the UK which is growing because we are so good at what we do and because we are in Europe. Alone, we are a lot weaker. We are not the 5th largest economy if you take away the EU because the economy would not have the advantage of being a part of the EU.

It is all complex.

I find too many leave campaigners are throwing statistics around without looking at the dynamics of what will happen.

 

[DTES]

YOU SOUND LIKE A TURN COAT
regards
DR

What?

 

[5ways]

Not really. Those advocating LEAVE are all over the place with what they say we're voting for. "We'll be like Norway", "We'll be like Switzerland", "We'll be like Canada", "We're Britain, we'll be unique and have our own deals". I think it's as clear as mud what a leave vote would actually be voting for.

The advantage they have is that they can say almost anything and promise almost anything because it all leads back to the Big Bad.