[Politics] Brexit

[Raleigh Chopper]

Again go read what the treaties really mean especially the last one we signed.

I didn’t vote because I was undecided and that’s my choice I thought we lived in a democracy so I can choose to vote or not.

It would not surprise me if we had a second vote with the same options as the first vote we still voted to leave.

Makes me wonder then what the remainers would do then.

Living in a democracy means you are able to vote, not voting is a choice you are allowed to make if you so wish.
But if you decide not to vote then you can't complain against the outcome.
But it doesn't stop you from having a moan about what has happened since the referendum because we also have free speech.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Those who voted in the referendum didn't vote for people. Boris and co. weren't in charge then and indeed we've even had a general election since then.

This seems like a weird childish insult.

No, Boris and co, weren't in charge then, but the ERG and hard right have kept on voting against whatever Cameron and then May wanted so they can get their own way.
They kept promising a deal, a good deal and telling us how easy it would be, when in reality, they want the crisis of No Deal.

The immigration laws are already being relaxed as foreign students automatically get another two years here after their degrees are completed. Theresa May must be spitting feathers, as it was her who added in foreign students to the immigration figures, to make it sound worse than they were. She created the Hostile Environment, Windrush and Queue Jumpers.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I'll answer for TB - yes there were votes in parliament for the treaties. To touch on your previous post the Labour government promised a public vote on the Lisbon Treaty but lied - they clearly didn't trust the public .... sound familiar ?

I knew there were votes in Parliament but I was curious to know the ratios.
That's why we elect Parliament to vote on issues.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Funnily enough, we already had a parliamentary consensus for Brexit and that was the Brady amendment - the current deal but ditch the backstop which appears to be government policy. Unsurprisingly the EU rejects this and sticks to its position because it knows parliament won't sanction a no-deal so they can get whatever they want.

No concessions for those evil Tory voters then

Here we go again

Round and round and round he goes, where he'll stop, nobody knows

 

[Triggaaar]

I'd suggest an educated one, that a child may disagree with.

Right, so because I disagree you're suggesting I'm a child. Great, another childish insult.

They voted for what people said and those people are now in power.

Johnson is PM, but even he doesn't have the power, as he doesn't have a majority government and the supreme court has clipped his wings. He doesn't have the power to enact any form of Brexit.

Brexit was sold as a combination of a return to Sovereignty and a halt to uncontrolled immigration.

It was sold as many things, and most didn't believe all the promises made by those, like Farage, who weren't going to be in power in the event he won, just as we don't believe all the promises before each general election.

Come on, they've employed a pro immigration, pro freedom of movement chancer wrong-un to carry it out. Backed up by a disaster advisor who fell out with Farage because he always wanted a referendum post deal.

Everything the Tories have done since Brexit, in an effort to provide Brexit, has been a mess. They've let the country down, and no other party has exactly helped either.

You've been played.

This is just childish language. I'm not personally offended or anything, I just think you're being childish and what I'm left remembering after reading your posts is not whatever point you were trying to make, but that you're just being childish. No doubt you'll just reply to my post with your three words thinking you're smart, and I'll ignore you.

 

[Triggaaar]

No, Boris and co, weren't in charge then, but the ERG and hard right have kept on voting against whatever Cameron and then May wanted so they can get their own way.
They kept promising a deal, a good deal and telling us how easy it would be, when in reality, they want the crisis of No Deal.

I'm not sure they wanted no deal back then, but I don't think a good deal was ever going to be easy. But I don't really mind that, everyone knew that those claims were being made by people who weren't going to be in power, so they were obviously empty promises.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I'm not sure they wanted no deal back then, but I don't think a good deal was ever going to be easy. But I don't really mind that, everyone knew that those claims were being made by people who weren't going to be in power, so they were obviously empty promises.

Apologies if I have missed a previous point - I've just dipped in briefly whilst waiting to go to a football match.

Are you saying that everyone discounted the references to easiest-deal-in-history, cake-and-eat-it and the rest because they knew that the people making the claims (Johnson, Gove, Cummings etc) weren't going to be in power?

 

[WATFORD zero]

My daughter has just sent me

 

[WATFORD zero]

I'm not sure they wanted no deal back then, but I don't think a good deal was ever going to be easy. But I don't really mind that, everyone knew that those claims were being made by people who weren't going to be in power, so they were obviously empty promises.

I really don't think the issue is whether a deal is 'good' or not, It's just that to have any deal which is implementable in NI, it has to include EEA/EFTA , Customs Union or something very similar.

Now some Leave voters recognise this, whilst others believe this is 'NOT LEAVING THE EU', 'VASSAL STATE' etc etc

So their alternative has to be, by definition, 'No deal'.

I wonder how many want each option. If only there was a way to find out

 

[Stat Brother]

Leave Means Leave

[tweet]1177868690999713792[/tweet]

As [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] always says, 'the market will correct itself, it always does'.

It seems like the sentence ought to end with:-

'once the money men have decided they've taken all they can from the country'.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Apologies if I have missed a previous point - I've just dipped in briefly whilst waiting to go to a football match.

Are you saying that everyone discounted the references to easiest-deal-in-history, cake-and-eat-it and the rest because they knew that the people making the claims (Johnson, Gove, Cummings etc) weren't going to be in power?

If we just take the central £350m a week claim that Dominic Cummings said of:

Pundits and MPs kept saying ‘why isn’t Leave arguing about the economy and living standards’. They did not realise that for millions of people, £350m/NHS was about the economy and living standards – that’s why it was so effective. It was clearly the most effective argument not only with the crucial swing fifth but with almost every demographic. Even with UKIP voters it was level-pegging with immigration. Would we have won without immigration? No. Would we have won without £350m/NHS? All our research and the close result strongly suggests No. Would we have won by spending our time talking about trade and the Single Market? No way.

47% of people believed it, 39% didn't, with 14% unsure according to IPSOS/MORI in the run up to the referendum. Polling nearly a year ago by the same organisation showed 42% still believed it, 36% didn't and 22% were unsure.

I appreciate all home owning, leave voters on this thread didn't believe it, but maybe they just need to try and put themselves in the shoes of someone living on Universal Credit after 6 years austerity in a deprived area, who hasn't voted before in anything and you can surely start to understand why Cummings pulled 3 million non-voters out the bag for leave? 70% of housing association/local authority housing tenants voting leave is not insignificant and they didn't do it for no reason. I do wonder if this denial is similar, in that it's formed from a stigma toward benefit claimants, to the same way leave voters dissociate themselves with being linked with those with far more right wing views on immigration and the type/religion of immigrant coming here?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

My daughter has just sent me

View attachment 115700

I'd like to think that was true but the 12s and 14s don't stop at that stop any longer.

 

[Triggaaar]

I really don't think the issue is whether a deal is 'good' or not, It's just that to have any deal which is implementable in NI, it has to include EEA/EFTA , Customs Union or something very similar.

Yes I agree it needs to be like that, and within those limits a deal could still be good or bad.

Now some Leave voters recognise this, whilst others believe this is 'NOT LEAVING THE EU', 'VASSAL STATE' etc etc

So their alternative has to be, by definition, 'No deal'.

I wonder how many want each option. If only there was a way to find out

I don't wonder, I've always known that the majority of people would prefer a soft brexit. Of course there would be a lot of leave voters who wanted a harder brexit, but overall they are in a minority. If we had a referendum that gave the choice of a fair soft brexit deal, or a hard brexit (remain not on the paper), then the vast majority of voters would go for the soft brexit.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I'd like to think that was true but the 12s and 14s don't stop at that stop any longer.

My daughter is fake newsing me ?

 

[Triggaaar]

Are you saying that everyone discounted the references to easiest-deal-in-history, cake-and-eat-it and the rest because they knew that the people making the claims (Johnson, Gove, Cummings etc) weren't going to be in power?

Reading back my post, yes that is what I said, and no I realise that not 'everyone' knew, but I would say that those who were taking an interest in the debate at the time knew that Farage wasn't going to be our PM.

 

[Triggaaar]

I'd like to think that was true but the 12s and 14s don't stop at that stop any longer.

Damn, I'd like that to have been true too. Nice detective work (obviously I'm taking you at your word).

 

[WATFORD zero]

Yes I agree it needs to be like that, and within those limits a deal could still be good or bad.

I don't wonder, I've always known that the majority of people would prefer a soft brexit. Of course there would be a lot of leave voters who wanted a harder brexit, but overall they are in a minority. If we had a referendum that gave the choice of a fair soft brexit deal, or a hard brexit (remain not on the paper), then the vast majority of voters would go for the soft brexit.

So, when and if a second referendum happened, you believe that we shouldn't allow people who were under 18 way back in June 2016 to have a say ?

Seems a little harsh to me

(And you seem to be making a lot of assumptions about what people wanted, based solely on your perception).

Anyway, more pressing matters are taking priority UTA

 

[Triggaaar]

Without having read the posts above, my mind really wandered on what the below meant:

I'd like to think that was true but the 12s and 14s don't stop at that stop any longer.

My daughter is fake newsing me ?

Having a 12-year-old daughter myself, I was a little concerned at what they don't stop at these days.

 

[Triggaaar]

So, when and if a second referendum happened

I can stop you there. I wasn't suggesting we had another referendum (and I'm not saying we shouldn't, that's a separate subject), I'm simply stating that we have had a referendum, and although Leave won, the majority of voters wouldn't have wanted a hard brexit. That's just obvious.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

My daughter is fake newsing me ?

Yep.

Damn, I'd like that to have been true too. Nice detective work (obviously I'm taking you at your word).

It would have appeared true a couple of months ago but the 12s used to set off from outside M&S but were moved to Dyke Road opposite Imperial Arcade.
Now the Portland Street bus stop is too close, so the next stop is the bottom of North Road.

Without having read the posts above, my mind really wandered on what the below meant:


Having a 12-year-old daughter myself, I was a little concerned at what they don't stop at these days.