[Politics] Brexit

[daveinplzen]

That post obviously hit home ...

Do you get someone to read the newspapers to you? Look them up, there are hundreds of 'allegations' and proven cases available from many news sources.

I asked you what they were, and what they related to, as you were the one bandying them about on this thread. This is the second time you have avoided answering. I think that tells me enough. Im sure it 'hit home' the first time I asked you. Cheers.

 

[pastafarian]

Did any Leaver tell you it was undemocratic to change your mind Pastafarian?
There, that didn't hurt did it... and I didn't know the answer till you wrote your last tome.
But you seem to have lost your light hearted repartee.... and are reduced to limp insults again.
The sun's shining, apparently you 'won' something a few years ago.... so cheer up!

What a dumb question. No, I have never had a leaver tell me its undemocratic to change your mind. We have already established, that no one has ever said its undemocratic to change your mind.

You have forgotten already the phrase you like to adhere to. If you think someone is being rude and insulting to you, you should be silent and shut up

“Never respond to rudeness. When people are rude to you, they reveal who they are, not who you are. Don’t take it personally be silent.”

Pastafarian.

Care to disclose the “checkboxes” I have ticked? I think it would be quite interesting to see what kind of criteria one must fill to be considered a remainer, by a leaver. Are there different levels of remainer? Is there a ranking system?

I wait with baited breath. In your entire post you have allured to “remaniacs” (love the new word by the way, I think this one will stick) doing a “job” on me.

The irony of course, at no point acknowledging, nay actually, wilfully ignoring the point I made about right wing media as a whole doing a job on me in the first place. I mean if you’re going to come at me, please do some research and acknowledge the theme of the post as a whole.

Firstly, conflating the terms withdrawal agreement and trade deal as being separate entities is a good method to try and nit pick, to and defend the comments Leave made about the easiest deal in history. A common theme but inherently flawed. Here’s why. During the referendum, there was a lot of speak about a trade deal. There was little speak about a withdrawal agreement. And even if both were mentioned, there was very little in the way of explaining they are not conceivably the same thing.

But, if the trade deal really was the easiest to form in human history, why could it not have been agreed during the withdrawal agreement negotiations and implemented into the withdrawal agreement bill? The very fact we are going to have an indefinite backstop implies even if a withdrawal agreement can be ratified – I personally don’t believe one ever will, the trade deal will still not be the easiest in human history. This to me is simple common sense and logic.

In response to your argument regarding the ever closer union. I’m baffled by you incoherent sentence. It reads like you believe this can never be finalised. Which is exactly what I was trying to point out. An un-implementable scare tactic.

In response to your EU army points. Again it’s not clear. Were you rage typing? Since when do most remainers think it’s a bad Idea? I think based on our severe under funding of our own defence we could certainly do with being part of a bigger group. I certainly believe it would be a bigger deterrent than a few nuclear submarines. But that’s neither here nor there.

In regards to Turkey. I agree, nobody at all said the entire Turkish population would turn up. How absurd. The fear mongering relied on making the public believe there is the potential for a lot of Turkish to immigrate here. Let’s not be facetious or literal. Not all messages by the leave campaign were literal. It was about the theme, about the rhetoric.

This bit however, was the most absurd part of your post. The strain of public services caused by austerity v the EU. You cannot deny that immigration was a hot subject during the referendum campaigns. Immigration was a concern by a few sets of voters. However, I will simply outline two groups of people who were concerned about EU immigration. 1. Racists. 2. People who were concerned about strain on public services and housing. These people such as myself were worried about class sizes being too big, too little homes driving up rent prices and house prices, longer waiting times for the NHS, Increased suicide due to lack of mental health services and less safety as a result of fewer police offices on the street.

As a mail reader at the time, it was a very precarious situation where the Daily Mail was torn between ripping MP’s apart for scare mongering about leaving, whilst simultaneously giving full support to the same MP’s domestic policies. Anything to avoid a Labour government. As a public, people were deeply unhappy with cuts, cuts and more cuts. The leave campaign played on this through blaming immigration, by blaming the EU. The obvious rhetoric, was that your children’s class sizes would be smaller if not for all the brown people taking up school places. That brown people and undeserving eastern Europeans are taking up YOUR place on the NHS register. That these people got first dibs on your houses – that we already didn’t have enough of.

It’s no coincidence that these issues became more and more noticeable after the coalition backed austerity in 2010. But I was told it was because of immigration. I now know this to be a lie. And if there are still people out there that still would vote leave to curb immigration, if I was them, I would feel betrayed too by BJ’s decision to scrap lowering immigration and to endorse an illegal immigrant amnesty.

“They have convinced you that sovereignty isn’t really a thing either”. No they have enlightened me to the fact that on the things that matter, we have full control and that in reality, treaties which have the ability to transfer more sovereignty to the EU require the UK to support it.

“no one is really sure if they are all victims but the victim card works better if you simply pretend they all are”. I’ve provided linked evidence confirming I am genuinely somebody who has changed their mind. Considering I am one of 34 million people who voted in the referendum, I think it’s highly likely that at LEAST 30,000 have changed their attitude. Considering 30,000 is only 0.08% of the vote. You are disingenuous to the extreme. Its scary scary stuff.

It matters not that you have changed your mind, you changing your mind doesn’t change the outcome of the referendum.
You will be useful to the pro EU rejoin lobby though if there ever is a referendum to rejoin the EU after we have left.
As I said, I hope you are less susceptible in the future. Stay safe.

I see you are still pushing your WTO Most Preferred Nation solution of no borders and completely tariff-free and custom-free access to all British markets for the Whole of the world. And you are expecting the free access to continue for the months or years that talks continue? Well giving the whole world unfettered access is certainly the way encourage them to agree new trade deals

And I see you are still wittering on about these magical technical solutions that the EU are dismissing. I bet those software houses are furious at the fact that they aren't allowed to market millions of pounds worth of solutions, because the EU won't let them

It's probably just co-incidence that my crystal ball worked perfectly on March 31st and April 12th then, whilst your speculation proved spectacularly wrong. October 31st, Double or quits ?

Not what im saying at all, this is your interpretation of what I said and as usual with all your WTO rubbish it is incorrect. Presume your cloudy interpretation is due to your anger at realising the EU will want to erect border controls to protect their internal market and will be the instigators of breaking the GFA.

Ps. Listing all the options that are available, like you do. does not mean you have gained powers to see into the future when one of the options happens.
Here you go, behold my powers of predicting the future.

The outcome result of the game will be
A. Albion win
B. Albion loss
C. Draw

 

[clapham_gull]

Portillo has never nailed anything in his life.

As a multi millionaire MP, author and television presenter I'd imagine he probably has.

Brexiteers in-fighting again, no shocks.

 

[beorhthelm]

Portillo nailed it tonight. Brexit meant more to the Tory Party than it did voters.

at least one person interviewed noted a large number of voters agreed.

and we still continue to ignore a large number of MPs dont support brexit, but going along because they fear rejection from their consituents. brexit would have died if they made a united front against the government policy.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I asked you what they were, and what they related to, as you were the one bandying them about on this thread. This is the second time you have avoided answering. I think that tells me enough. Im sure it 'hit home' the first time I asked you. Cheers.

I haven't avoided anything, I have provided a link to a thread on here that lists numerous examples and suggested you look for yourself as the examples are readily available.

It is a fact that the Jewish Labour movement affiliated to the Labour movement for nearly a century, voted to describe the Labour Party as 'institutionally anti-Semitic' and it is a fact that the three most prominent Jewish newspapers described a potential Corbyn government as an 'existential threat to Jewish life in the UK'. Obviously, all those intending to vote for that party at the next General election couldn't give a sh*t about their views but they will bang about some irrelevant nobody on this thread being antisemitic and racist.

 

[Wardy's twin]

But i do have an answer as to why i voted to leave and have said so as to why we should leave. You can search NSC pre referendum brexit threads and discover this yourself.
I still dont understand why you want to discuss if we should leave or not when the voting booths are closed and a decision from the referendum vote has been returned.



Ah, more mis-representing from you. You really cant lick your problem can you. The word “ignored” was used not the word ignoring.
If you end up not carrying out the decision given by a referendum, and do the opposite instead, then its fair to say that decision has been “Ignored”.
Will you complain down the line if a future referendum instructs the UK to rejoin the EU, and that referendum decision is ignored and we stay out of the EU instead. Be odd if you moaned about the same standards that remainers have just now invented for themselves and consider by their own determination to be the rules that can be applied.
By the way, in such an eventuality, I would say the referendum should be respected and we should rejoin, where as you will be running around like a headless chicken wondering if you should be a hypocrite and moan that your own invented standards of ignoring a referendum decision are being applied.




Crikey .The remainiac bullshitters have done a good job on you.
You are like a one man checkbox exercise from their grooming handbook.

They have convinced you that Liam Fox saying the trade deal between the UK and the EU will be the easiest deal in history ( a trade deal that cannot be negotiated and concluded until after we have left and are a third country) was actually Fox saying instead that the withdrawal agreement deal will be the easiest deal in history,……. maybe the trade deal will be the easiest is trade deal in history, who can say, we havnt got to that point yet.
They have convinced you that ever closer union is a lie because it still hasn’t happened since we voted or been finalized, even though it is just a symbolic aspiration with no legal effect that cant be finalized anyway because it doesn’t actually do anything anyway with how the EU operates.
They have convinced you that actually an EU army, being the most powerful army on the planet and a joy amongst 27 allies if it happened, isnt such a bad thing after all, whilst at the same time angrily telling everyone else there wont be a EU army and stop worrying people(because most remainers think it’s a dreadful idea too), even though if its formed it will be the most powerful army on the planet and will be brilliant……that’s noahs ark tomfoolery that one.
They have convinced you that leavers were lying when telling you the whole population of Turkey were going to turn up on the UK doorstep, even though no one said the whole population of Turkey was going to turn up on the UK doorstep. The only people that said the whole population of Turkey was going to turn up on the UK doorstep where remainers, when they lied that you were being told this…..confusing isnt it.
They have convinced you that in general your concerns over the EU should be dismissed because in actuality these concerns are the fault of you guessed it…..Tory Austerity…. This one is called the momentum effect, which is also used by lib dems as they hate the notion not only that its possible for people dislike the EU, but believe its impossible people voted to leave because they disliked the EU(it must be another reason)…..even when many of them say in the same breath the EU is shit, and we should stay in and fundamentally change and reform it so it isnt shitty anymore.
They have convinced you that sovereignty isnt really a thing either, (even though it was one of the major voting issues for leavers)… and even if it was actually a thing you shouldn’t concern yourself with it , its only a tiny fraction of laws that influence the UK. Sure,it might well be that its up to 60% influenced when you include regulations alongside acts and statutory instruments, but it’s a bit complicated to say for sure, so don’t concern yourself with that and lets go with the lowest figure we can imagine so you don’t have to think it’s a relevant issue.

These type of grooming remainiacs that peddle their crap are full on,they are like a relentless plague, they usually infest places like twitter,I think they have a cult support group on twitter somewhere, remainersnow or something, where there are 30 thousand victims that can share their stories, no one is really sure if they are all victims but the victim card works better if you simply pretend they all are, but as you have already eluded you are quite susceptible to being influenced, so I wouldn’t seek them out if I were you

I hope you will be able to be less susceptible in the future should there ever be a referendum to rejoin the EU after we have left……that will be an interesting discussion considering new membership terms will prob mean no rebate and no opt outs…..but that’s a conversation for another day.

Stay safe, and remember, you are always entitled to change your mind on something. At least you have online support. Think of those poor remainers that have changed their mind and are now leavers. They wouldn’t dare say anything on places like twitter, they would be hounded. Not surprised they just keep themselves to themselves and don’t make a public song and dance………bit like the well known shy tory effect.



I doubt anyone did. Have you ever heard anyone saying its undemocratic to change your mind? I have never heard anyone say its undemocratic to change your mind. I change my mind all the time and no one ever says what an undemocratic thing to do……just today I wasn’t going to have a hot chocolate, as im trying to knock them on the head, but I changed my mind and had one……very nice it was too……its all about the cream.



Now I appreciate you have shown yourself to be a bit clueless on the WTO
But nail on the head, even though you didn’t mean it.
In the event of no deal The EU cannot accept not having borders in Ireland. From day one they will have to protect the integrity of their single market and erect borders in Ireland thus being the instigators of breaking the GFA. We on the other hand will not erect borders on day one, (no WTO rules demand borders are erected,obviously with your WTO stupidity,you may not have worked this out yet) we will wait for the inevitable complaint via the WTO that will take months anyway to even sort out the beginning of forum talks and might take years to resolve to a conclusion from interested parties.Even then as no WTO rules demand we erect borders, we might still not erect borders and may use one of the other options that are open to forum members instead, if we are found(years down the line) to be in breach of WTO rules
I wonder in that scenario where it’s the EU seen as breaking the GFA, all of a sudden technological solutions that have been previously discussed and dismissed internally by the EU might be a solution the EU may suddenly think might be able to be applied after all so they are not seen as the ones breaking the GFA. Who knows eh. No one has a real crystal ball so its all just speculation.



Excellent conspiracy theory. Not quite as good as the mental one doing the rounds that we are soon to be the 51st state of the USA, but a cracking conspiracy none the less.
I know, why don’t you post a tweet again on here that implies elitist Boris was making a campaign promise in the run up to the 2016 referendum,……when in reality its actually him speaking in 2011,when he wasn’t even an MP and well before we even knew there was going to be a referendum…….that sort of twitter nonsense is always good for a giggle and provides fodder for the gullible CT types.

Thought you did not want to discuss this anymore but as you are still contributing it would be simpler just to explain what the tangible benefits of leaving are because a number of people on this forum would like to know.

 

[Wardy's twin]

You both need to let it go, the result was leave and that is what we have to do.

Your types are just stirring up a hatred between everyone.

Come on reunite,you know it makes sense you plonkers.

amazing just amazing

 

[clapham_gull]

at least one person interviewed noted a large number of voters agreed.

and we still continue to ignore a large number of MPs dont support brexit, but going along because they fear rejection from their consituents. brexit would have died if they made a united front against the government policy.

The point being that the call for a referendum was a Tory party issue not a national one. Portillo has been very consistent on this issue even as as ardent leaver. He answered a question honestly that he didn't want to be asked because he knew it would split the country in two.

It splits the country into winners and losers (whichever way it goes) for a very long time. It also now threatens the Union.

Brexiteers really need to follow the argument through. Did they really want a split country and an a purely independent England ?

Of course they didn't as much as they didn't actually want "no deal".

 

[pastafarian]

Thought you did not want to discuss this anymore but as you are still contributing it would be simpler just to explain what the tangible benefits of leaving are because a number of people on this forum would like to know.

No, I said to you it was pointless discussing pre-referendum voting arguments as to whether we should or should not vote to leave the EU.
The voting has finished and a result has been declared.
No one has to justify to you why they put their X where they did. The childish arrogance of some people (and its all remainers) demanding others justify to them the way they voted is breath-taking.

 

[The Clamp]

Obviously. But we are about to, never mind all the hand wringing and/or Raleigh Chopper's piss.
None taken, you are entitled to your opinion but you lost the vote.

And I'm not thick, and nor are the Brexit voters I know personally. Very intelligent people who can think outside the box.

I suppose you might get third time lucky. If anyone is vile enough to “honour” the undemocratic, criminally obtained, Leave vote, it’s that ****.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The Brecon and Radnor by election result will be very interesting tonight. They voted 51.9% to Leave three years ago.

A reasonable turnout with 59% voting. It could reduce Johnson's majority to just one.
Rumours are that Labour have lost their deposit.

 

[birthofanorange]

Let's get real for a minute here.

I voted leave. I wasn't exactly what you call an on the fence or swing voter. In fact I was passionately pro leave and very vocal as such trying to persuade people it was the right thing to do.

Firstly, I in no way voted to be worse off. Not even for a second did I vote to be worse off in the short term, full stop.

In fact, as a daily mail reader (at the time) being worse off , even in the short term was dismissed as 'Scare mongering ' or 'project fear' by the leave campaign.

In actual fact, I voted for the easiest deal in human history, one that could be "rapidly" (quote Boris johnson) implemented.

3 years down the line there has been no such thing as the easiest deal in human history. I now know this doesn't and never did exist.

In actual fact, I voted to avoid an "ever closer union". This hasn't happened. And in hindsight, I recognise we had Veto powers to avoid this. This no longer remains true.

In actual fact, I voted to avoid an EU army. This hasn't happened. In hindsight, I now question why I even thought an EU army is even an issue. Whats so bad about having 27 allies and the most powerful army on the planet? But the exclamation marks and capital letter mail headlines had me thinking this was a disaster.

I actually voted to avoid 70 million Turks turning up on my doorstep. Despite the fact they are are decades away from meeting EU criteria to join the bloc.

One of the reasons I voted to stop further risk of immigration was the strain on our public services. This however, was not a lie. But the dirty little secret? The leave campaign convinced me it was because there was too many people coming from the EU. It wasn't that at all . It was and still is a result of poorly funded public services caused by Tory austerity. I was young, I didn't know better.

I actually voted to regain sovereignty. I was 24 at the time. Got to be honest, didn't really even know what sovereignty was, all I know is the daily mail made me think we had to have it, at whatever cost.

Again, hindsight taught me we have a veto for major changes. Hindsight taught me EU laws are a tiny percentage of our laws. And the ones they DID enforce, actually make a lot of sense. But the daily mail told me "How very dare they".

We are now three years down the line. My worst fears havent come true, nor was there any real risk of them happening.

But one fear I didn't expect, was to be poorer and now this looks like a certainty. see most think tank studies. The fact that 40 billion will be wiped off our GDP to save a supposed (absolute lie) £350m per week?

All this caused by what was the actual project fear, the leave campaign.

Three years have changed me. Older, wiser and reading papers that don't have divisive rhetoric.

If I'm so passionately remain, after being so passionately leave, I do wonder just how many swing voters who voted out now live every day with regret, like me.

Democracy is about flexibility and changing opinions based on current affairs. Stop stealing my democracy and let me fix the sh1t I helped create.






Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk

Having been a bit busy, recently, I thought I'd play catch-up on this thread. To be honest, I had become a little lazy and apathetic recently - resigned, almost.
But then, then along comes a post such as the above (and his/her subsequent posts), and you know what? I think to myself, "There, that's what was needed to give you the kick up the bum".
Now, I couldn't actually care less who the poster might be/not be, but they sure as Hell spelled out a lot of home truths. I tend to believe that they are utterly genuine - of course, that kind of thinking is cannon fodder for the...let's say....less bright of Leavers on here.
It has renewed my belief that we really won't be Brexiting in October...or any time soon - thankfully.
Oh, and that belief is also in Britain, as I don't believe we're actually stupid enough to go through with it.
'Leave means Leave'....us in the EU.

 

[GT49er]

It's because the poster concerned signs off every post with the initials of his former user name, Das Reich. He is only allowed on the boards with the fairy avatar and Pretty pink fairy user name. He has the option to not refer to his former user name, but does so, he is not ashamed of it clearly.

Yes, I'm aware of his former user name. He may be a Nazi; he may a (very successful) wind-up merchant, I don't know. It's not difficult to wind up some people on here, especially on this thread.
So, he wants us to leave the EU, and maybe he is a Nazi - but to extrapolate from that that anybody who agrees with him about leaving the EU, nothing else is a Nazi too is just ****wittery of the first order. Or if not an actual Nazi, at least a racist, fascist, right-wing, thick old person..........

.........and please don't try and tell me some of your fellow remainers haven't done exactly that. Getting close to 100,000 posts on this thread now - gratuitous insults from remainers up to five figures? You could bet your mortgage on it!

Over 90,000 posts on here now - the number of such posts must be well into five figures by now.

 

[daveinplzen]

I haven't avoided anything, I have provided a link to a thread on here that lists numerous examples and suggested you look for yourself as the examples are readily available.

It is a fact that the Jewish Labour movement affiliated to the Labour movement for nearly a century, voted to describe the Labour Party as 'institutionally anti-Semitic' and it is a fact that the three most prominent Jewish newspapers described a potential Corbyn government as an 'existential threat to Jewish life in the UK'. Obviously, all those intending to vote for that party at the next General election couldn't give a sh*t about their views but they will bang about some irrelevant nobody on this thread being antisemitic and racist.

And the anti semitsm related to what exactly? The faith, or the State of Israel?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The Tories have lost another MP.

LibDem gain Brecon.

The Monster Raving Looney Party got more votes than UKIP.

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

Yes, I'm aware of his former user name. He may be a Nazi; he may a (very successful) wind-up merchant, I don't know. It's not difficult to wind up some people on here, especially on this thread.
So, he wants us to leave the EU, and maybe he is a Nazi - but to extrapolate from that that anybody who agrees with him about leaving the EU, nothing else is a Nazi too is just ****wittery of the first order. Or if not an actual Nazi, at least a racist, fascist, right-wing, thick old person..........

.........and please don't try and tell me some of your fellow remainers haven't done exactly that. Getting close to 100,000 posts on this thread now - gratuitous insults from remainers up to five figures? You could bet your mortgage on it!

Over 90,000 posts on here now - the number of such posts must be well into five figures by now.

Here is where you have got confused. Nobody is suggesting that. It is purely defending him when the only complaint is about his Das Reich sign off. No more, no less.

The insults are very much two way.

 

[GrizzlingGammon]

The Tories have lost another MP.

LibDem gain Brecon.

The Monster Raving Looney Party got more votes than UKIP.

Wait for the anti Libdem comments to kick in on here.

Is the Bollox to brexit movement gaining motion?

 

[beorhthelm]

The Tories have lost another MP.

LibDem gain Brecon.

The Monster Raving Looney Party got more votes than UKIP.

UKIP is dead if we werent already aware of that, replaced by Brexit Party. interesting strategic error from them, splitting the vote may have made Brexit a little less likely.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Apparently there's a document circulating Whitehall containing an analysis of something called RWCS: Reasonable Worst Case Scenarios. It's been leaked to The Guardian and contains some very scary stuff. What with this and the £6 billion being spent on Brexit (ie essentially being 'spaffed up a wall' - just think what else it could have been spent on), don't any of our Brexiteer friends just occasionally think that it could be rather good if the Brexit genie could be put back in its box? Did you really think it would turn out so badly - and we ain't seen nothing yet...……………………..(you don't have to publicly admit it, just reflect a little).

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...with-hard-brexit-than-in-spring-say-officials

 

[Simster]

The biggest takeaway from the Brecon result is not that there is no mandate for a no deal Brexit - we knew that already. It is that Labour are a busted flush with Corbyn in charge. Nobody is going to vote for them.

I'm sure it's all the fault of Peter Mandelson and Alistair Campbell though.