[Politics] Brexit

[Eeyore]

For simplicity, if Man City beat Watford 6-0 that is the end of it, Man City win the cup. They don't then have a second game because Watford feel aggrieved. That is my simplicity on the referendum. Everyone had a vote, they voted and that was it. That was democracy, you don't do democracy twice because you didn't like the initial result.

I'd compare it more to Qatar being awarded the World Cup.

 

[Eeyore]

Lol I’m simple? least I know what I voted for and don’t resort to threatening blood on the streets.

You are either drunk or you have gone full retard and you never go full retard.

Try not to use the word 'retard'. I'm sure the recipient would be little offended by it but it's such a term of ignorance.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Why are you so desperate for me to tell you what you'd probably try to belittle me for? I have one passion, and one only. It is called democracy, it is called the winner, or loser, whatever. There seems to be very little appetite for democracy from some of you, it's quite sad really.

On the contrary, Remainers want more democracy. Davies - democracy ceases to be democracy if you cannot change your mind.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Oh I do empathise, I may have voted remain, but you have no right to try to overturn the will of a nation.

The will of the nation was a Tory government in 2017. Does that mean we have to a Tory government for ever?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, but two points.

It is axiomatic that the larger the democratic body, the more people each individual will have to share his rights with. And the more geographically distant the centre of power will be. In the USA, final decisions about national security are made 3000 miles away from many of the population whereas in Malta they're made just down the road. In itself, this is not necessarily a bad thing. If it was, all Englishmen would be campaigning for the reinstatement of Mercia and Wessex and San Marino would be the best country on earth. The important point is whether there is a sound system of democratic process operating at national and local level. The EU isn't perfect in this respect but I suggest it's much better than the UK. (As an aside, after decades of voting in every single election going, a few weeks ago, for the first time ever, I found my my vote actually contributing to someone being elected.)

Secondly, many Brexiteers' definition of sovereignty seems in some ways a little childlike. No country is independent in the battleship sense anymore and in real terms we will have less independence in future than we have now. As one small example, take the recent comments of two senior US female politicians, Nancy Pelosi and Linda Sanchez. Both have said that there is no chance of the UK signing a trade deal with the US unless we agree to accept American animal welfare and food standards. Theoretically we can tell them to stuff their deal, but in reality? In reality we'll have to accept those standards - we will have no input into getting those standards changed. (And if you say that EU animal welfare standards are also inadequate I would agree - but at least we are participants in a forum where we can argue and lobby for change.)

You make good points which I don't necessarily wholly agree with but nevertheless.

 

[nicko31]

Have you ever thought that a second referendum would be taken seriously by leavers if they lost? There would be serious blood on the streets of Britain.

Threats like this don't help your cause pal.

Better to focus your activities on the benefits of no deal.

Will £1 Trillion of assets that have left the UK since June 2016 be coming back?

What country are you trying to replicate under a WTO Brexit?

Are you OK with British agriculture and manufacturing industry being dismantled?

 

[Is it PotG?]

The will of the nation was a Tory government in 2017. Does that mean we have to a Tory government for ever?

No, but the Tories were indeed put in government post election, thereby fulfilling said election. Brexit has not been carried out, as per the referendum which was agreed to by Parliament.


I'm all for re-referendums every week if you want to allow for changed minds, but EACH result must be honoured.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

....

I think we can break through this impasse.....
Answer yes or no and I at least will accept your response as accurate as far as you are aware.
Do you think you are a racist?

.... and do you think you can be civil? You chuck offensive language around like confetti and then seem really upset when you are on the receiving end.

The simple and direct answer is no. There, hardly difficult to answer a yes/no question, yet your mate [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] seems incapable of doing so. Maybe you could now assist him ?

I find the incessant bullying of Plooks irritating by this poster seems to me he/she jumps on any post Plooks makes and as for calling him out to a face to face earlier in this thread !! We are all supporters of the same football club and at the end of the day not one of us has any chance to make a difference except maybe a cross in a box, lighten up people.

It's hardly bullying - it's pulling someone up on ridiculous posts. Strange, I pull Plooks up on his yet there is a wolf pack mentality amoung some posters when [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] post - and we can add [MENTION=17215]Sussex Nomad[/MENTION] to that honourable group now as well.

The problem I have with Plooks is that he makes sweeping generalisations and, then when challenged, won't back them up. He even then tries to claim he never said it - yet there it is in black and white earlier in the thread. He blames the ills of his life on everyone but himself. So far we have him blaming old people for absolutely everything, homeowners for him not being able to get a home and the educational establishment for his failure in life. Now he's called millions of people, including me, racist. I don't know about you but I object to being called racist when I'm not. I find it as offensive as being called a rapist or a paedophile. And as for offensive, I see we now have the word 'retard' popping into the thread ..... I guess it won't be long before we get Joey or spastic.

So, in summary, when Plooks stops being an utter moron, I'll stop jumping on his posts. You never know, one day he might actually answer the questions he's being asked ..... but I won't hold my breath.

 

[nicko31]

No, but the Tories were indeed put in government post election, thereby fulfilling said election. Brexit has not been carried out, as per the referendum which was agreed to by Govt.

Better to focus your blame on the Brexiteers MP, they've let you down. Your whole experiment is now at risk, not helped by the fascist surge in the EU parliament that has failed to materialise

 

[Is it PotG?]

Better to focus your blame on the Brexiteers MP, they've let you down. Your whole experiment is now at risk, not helped by the fascist surge in the EU parliament that has failed to materialise

Blame? I am not blaming anybody. Simply hoping that our democratic process is not damaged forever by delays and sabotage until 'those thick leave idiots will just go away'.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Sussex Nobhead a retard?

Now......

There's a thought ?

A gift that keeps on giving, even after I've put him on ignore. It is like Benveniste's 'memory' of a chemical left in water. Good read this, if you're bored.

https://www.nature.com/news/2004/041004/full/news041004-19.html

Who Did you vote for last week and how Did they get on
regards
DR

 

[golddene]

The simple and direct answer is no. There, hardly difficult to answer a yes/no question, yet your mate [MENTION=15363]Plooks[/MENTION] seems incapable of doing so. Maybe you could now assist him ?



It's hardly bullying - it's pulling someone up on ridiculous posts. Strange, I pull Plooks up on his yet there is a wolf pack mentality amoung some posters when [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] post - and we can add [MENTION=17215]Sussex Nomad[/MENTION] to that honourable group now as well.

The problem I have with Plooks is that he makes sweeping generalisations and, then when challenged, won't back them up. He even then tries to claim he never said it - yet there it is in black and white earlier in the thread. He blames the ills of his life on everyone but himself. So far we have him blaming old people for absolutely everything, homeowners for him not being able to get a home and the educational establishment for his failure in life. Now he's called millions of people, including me, racist. I don't know about you but I object to being called racist when I'm not. I find it as offensive as being called a rapist or a paedophile. And as for offensive, I see we now have the word 'retard' popping into the thread ..... I guess it won't be long before we get Joey or spastic.

So, in summary, when Plooks stops being an utter moron, I'll stop jumping on his posts. You never know, one day he might actually answer the questions he's being asked ..... but I won't hold my breath.

Just lighten up, don't take things so personal, honestly you'll feel better about things as I know I do! There's far more important things we have to contend with in life, this is just a phase which will eventually be replaced by something else to occupy our minds and feelings of injustice, I can you still remember austerity! though it's fading in the fog of Brexit, See ?

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

We now have 11 candidates for the Tory leadership and there's another thread to discuss their relative merits (or in one or two cases to actually discern any merits that they have). The differentiator is our old friend the 'walk-away-from-the-table' negotiation stance. This, it must be said, appears to connect with the electorate who (I think) conflate this with the 'let's just get on with it' trope and I think many of us can see the attraction of the latter.

There are very many problems with the 'walk-away' tactic and I'm not clever enough to identify them all. But one thing it definitely isn't is 'decisive'. It wouldn't actually sort anything out at all. It isn't a resolution and it isn't a short term fix. There are three problems (as I say there are actually many more -and they are almost endless if you take it sector by sector).


1. Assuming we carry through the threat (i.e. its no just a posture), then there's the chaos on day 1 (November 1st if Boris and Esther are to be believed*).


2. We then have a period in which we re-negotiate something with the EU and we won't know the terms or timing of this re-negotiation. Even if they come begging to us (and surely no-one now seriously believes this?) it would take time to sort it out: we'd need to (um, let's think of a phrase) - oh yes 'get on with it'.


3. We'd then also (in parallel? who knows?)) start bi-lateral negotiations with all the countries that are queueing up to do deals with us (and where is Liam Fox these days just when you need him?). This would be not one process but a multi-layered process (that what bi-lateral deals mean). We'd need to - er - 'get on with it'. Of course if no bugger wants any deals with us (and they are hardly queuing around the block) then that is not problem.

Conclusion: why isn't any one of the candidates honest enough to at least acknowledge these problems instead of playing to the Brexit gallery and falling over each other in trying to appear tougher than the next (Rory Stewart clearly an exception)? Answers on a postcard. And please, if anyone in the Leave camp has any expertise on these matters, then do share it. (We'll take it as a given that 'leave means leave'.)

* and yes, I know what you are thinking

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Blame? I am not blaming anybody. Simply hoping that our democratic process is not damaged forever by delays and sabotage until 'those thick leave idiots will just go away'.

It's the extreme ERG politicians who won't agree to any kind of customs union who keep defeating the elected governments bill. If they hadn't done that, then we would have left on March 29th.

What Remainers are saying is that Leavers can't agree amongst themselves how they want to leave, so we haven't left. Many people now realise that leaving is a mistake, and far better to reform the EU from within, especially as the UK had such a large part in deciding its policies.

 

[daveinplzen]

Theres that PACK reference again. Brexiteers love a bit of DRAMA

Ask a Brexiteer a question, and they consider it an ATTACK. Very colourful, especially when commited by PACKS in a RAGE.
The loss of Democracy, over an ADVISORY referendum is a RIDICULOUS deduction. Its not even legally binding.
The use of such DRAMATIC language makes me feel the Brexiteers really are SNOWFLAKES, who will STAMP THEIR FEET AND GO BLUE IN THE FACE, if they do not get what they want. Its extremely funny.

For reference
''Referendums are not legally binding, so legally the Government can ignore the results; for example, even if the result of a pre-legislative referendum were a majority of "No" for a proposed law, Parliament could pass it anyway, because parliament is sovereign''

ie: it has NOTHING to do with democracy. Parliament is SOVEREIGN. Something many NITWITS have been using to explain their silliness.

 

[Is it PotG?]

It's the extreme ERG politicians who won't agree to any kind of customs union who keep defeating the elected governments bill. If they hadn't done that, then we would have left on March 29th.

What Remainers are saying is that Leavers can't agree amongst themselves how they want to leave, so we haven't left. Many people now realise that leaving is a mistake, and far better to reform the EU from within, especially as the UK had such a large part in deciding its policies.

Yet many believe even more vehemently it is better to leave. C'est la vie. Many who voted remain now want out of this bureaucratic hole from which there appears no escape.

 

[daveinplzen]

Yet many believe even more vehemently it is better to leave. C'est la vie. Many who voted remain now want out of this bureaucratic hole from which there appears no escape.

Do you believe its better to leave? You know with the prospect of extreme economic damage to the country, possibly for generations?

 

[Is it PotG?]

Theres that PACK reference again. Brexiteers love a bit of DRAMA

Ask a Brexiteer a question, and they consider it an ATTACK. Very colourful, especially when commited by PACKS in a RAGE.
The loss of Democracy, over an ADVISORY referendum is RIDICULOUS. Its not even legally binding.
The use of such DRAMATIC language makes me feel the Brexiteers really are SNOWFLAKES, who will STAMP THEIR FEET AND GO BLUE IN THE FACE, if they do not get what they want. Its extremely funny.

That's a passionate and eloquent statement, and I admire it. That's what we need right now, a committed belief to stand firm.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Yet many believe even more vehemently it is better to leave. C'est la vie. Many who voted remain now want out of this bureaucratic hole from which there appears no escape.

That doesn't make any difference. It's the 650 members of Parliament who matter.

 

[Is it PotG?]

Do you believe its better to leave? You know with the prospect of extreme economic damage to the country, possibly for generations?

Sauce? As it has not happened before, it's a matter of conjecture, not fact.

I like the words 'prospect' and 'possibly'.