[Politics] Brexit

[Deleted member 22389]

EU funding for projects has to be matched by equal amounts of the country's own treasury. When we had the dreadful flooding in Somerset a few years ago, the EU offered money for flood defences but Cameron turned it down, because he didn't want to match it.

It's our money anyway.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Of course the deal was acceptable to you as a staunch remainer. It wasn't really leaving.

The one thing you couldn't live with is actually, properly leaving. The thing people actually voted for.

The Brexit decision didn't damage the country. The refusal to accept it and get it done has damaged the country. A fudged new treaty will damage the country and create further division, revoking article 50 will damage the country and create further division. No deal is the only thing now which won't damage the country.[/QUOTE]

Surely anybody can see that "no deal" is BY DEFINITION the worst possible outcome for the country, unless we deliberately negotiate/choose something which is worse than the default position, which would be absolute madness.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

These were figures being spouted about by the remainers, so wide of the mark it's untrue.

Sorry I wasn't suggesting you had personally scaremongered, but believe me, this sort of thing has grated with a lot of brexiteers, as its just desperation on the remoaners part.

Yes, there will be a dip, but we will survive like we do when we have any recession, we are in a good current position to make that break to freedom again and dictate our own future for our country.

The sooner it happens the better.

I keep reading it will be the easiest deal ever, and they need us more than we need them. 47% of our trade is with the EU. America has already said they won't do a trade deal with us unless they can talk about our NHS, and in three years we have done three or four trade deals including Switzerland, and the Faroe Islands. We are throwing away 750 trade deals.


I am not confident.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

It's our money anyway.

Well, probably not, because it would otherwise be used to give tax breaks to multi national corporations with tory grandees on their boards

 

[dingodan]

Surely anybody can see that "no deal" is BY DEFINITION the worst possible outcome for the country, unless we deliberately negotiate/choose something which is worse than the default position, which would be absolute madness.

The problem is that the EU don't want to do a deal. Their approach is to push us into having only less desirable options. If they offer us an acceptable deal, we agree and we leave. It's done.

They are still hoping to prevent Brexit, so they will offer us a "deal" which isn't really leaving (the current withdrawl agreement), knowing that the only alternative is no deal, which they are hoping will be stopped from happening. So they are trying to push us into chosing between remain or remain. The only way out of that is to leave without a deal, and to actually be prepared to do that. Once we have left without a deal, that game will be over and they will actually get serious about doing a proper deal. Until then though, they will hold firm.

I'd rather do a deal, one which respects the fact that we want to leave properly and completely, and makes it as painless as possible for both sides. But that deal will never be on the table while we haven't actually left yet.

You said it yourself, no deal isn't an option which people are going to like. A deal which is worse than the current position (the deal on offer) isn't an option which people are going to like. What's the alternative to those two options? Remaining. & that's the whole point.

 

[A1X]

The problem is that the EU don't want to do a deal.

There literally is one on the table.

 

[golddene]

The tears don't wash with me.
Useless, weak, hopeless, nasty, evil control freak.
Cameron, May and now probably Johnson.
More like Zippos circus than a government.
Good riddance you gurning old boiler.

Quite, though I aliken them more to the Marx's brothers, the politics of slapstick you could not make it up!!!!

 

[Bold Seagull]

There literally is one on the table.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The problem is that the EU don't want to do a deal. Their approach is to push us into having only less desirable options. If they offer us an acceptable deal, we agree and we leave. It's done.

The EU have done a deal. It is the UK who can't agree and keep rejecting it. More specifically, it is Parliament who cannot agree the deal.

 

[dingodan]

The EU have done a deal. It is the UK who can't agree and keep rejecting it. More specifically, it is Parliament who cannot agree the deal.

The EU (who didn't/don't want Brexit) negotiated a deal with May (who didn't/doesn't want Brexit) which effectively keeps us in the EU. The only other option as they see it is to leave with no deal, which they expect to be prevented, which would also keep us in the EU.

So the question became, which do you want, to remain in the EU? or remain in the EU? & of course people on the remain side are also saying, "there's a deal on the table, why won't you vote for "Brexit"?"

It's no wonder we are stuck is it. It's because the EU, UK politicians, and the remain side of the debate, have all refused to accept the decision to leave. Simple as that.

At this rate you're going to end up with Nigel Farage as PM. & You will only have yourselves to blame.

 

[Is it PotG?]

New bloke (probably BoJo) heads off to Brussels....."It's this new deal or nowt".

Eurocrats "We are not budging, you won't leave".

BoJo (or alike) "We're off come Trick or Treat Day. Cheerio."

 

[ManOfSussex]

New bloke (probably BoJo) heads off to Brussels....."It's this new deal or nowt".

Eurocrats "We are not budging, you won't leave".

BoJo (or alike) "We're off come Trick or Treat Day. Cheerio."

Eurocrats: "Okay, see you at the end of November with your begging bowl and here's some plasters for your knees to help with the grazes from being on them when you come back."

 

[A1X]

The EU (who didn't/don't want Brexit) negotiated a deal with May (who didn't/doesn't want Brexit) which effectively keeps us in the EU.

In what way does a deal which sees us leave the EU "effectively keep us in the EU"?

 

[ManOfSussex]

The problem is that the EU don't want to do a deal. Their approach is to push us into having only less desirable options. If they offer us an acceptable deal, we agree and we leave. It's done.

They are still hoping to prevent Brexit, so they will offer us a "deal" which isn't really leaving (the current withdrawl agreement), knowing that the only alternative is no deal, which they are hoping will be stopped from happening. So they are trying to push us into chosing between remain or remain. The only way out of that is to leave without a deal, and to actually be prepared to do that. Once we have left without a deal, that game will be over and they will actually get serious about doing a proper deal. Until then though, they will hold firm.

I'd rather do a deal, one which respects the fact that we want to leave properly and completely, and makes it as painless as possible for both sides. But that deal will never be on the table while we haven't actually left yet.

You said it yourself, no deal isn't an option which people are going to like. A deal which is worse than the current position (the deal on offer) isn't an option which people are going to like. What's the alternative to those two options? Remaining. & that's the whole point.

That and your "No deal is the only thing now which won't damage the country" from earlier - you're on genuine ERG Tory Toff form today - it's seriously an Owen Paterson level of quality. I actually reckon you're the sort of guy who could blag your way into the pavilion at Lord's for an Eton College v Harrow School game wearing a clip on cravat, not a proper one.

 

[Is it PotG?]

That and your "No deal is the only thing now which won't damage the country" from earlier - you're on genuine ERG Tory Toff form today - it's seriously an Owen Paterson level of quality. I actually reckon you're the sort of guy who could blag your way into the pavilion at Lord's for an Eton College v Harrow School game wearing a clip on cravat, not a proper one.

A 'clip on cravat'? What sort of world do you live in?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

The EU (who didn't/don't want Brexit) negotiated a deal with May (who didn't/doesn't want Brexit) which effectively keeps us in the EU. The only other option as they see it is to leave with no deal, which they expect to be prevented, which would also keep us in the EU.

So the question became, which do you want, to remain in the EU? or remain in the EU? & of course people on the remain side are also saying, "there's a deal on the table, why won't you vote for "Brexit"?"

It's no wonder we are stuck is it. It's because the EU, UK politicians, and the remain side of the debate, have all refused to accept the decision to leave. Simple as that.

At this rate you're going to end up with Nigel Farage as PM. & You will only have yourselves to blame.

Ah I see you're in the 'wanting all the benefits, but none of the responsibilities' camp.

Farage can't even get elected as an MP let alone Prime Minister. He was defeated by a dolphin the seventh time.

 

[ManOfSussex]

A 'clip on cravat'? What sort of world do you live in?

I don't know, do I. You can wear cravats in the pavilion at Lord's if a tie isn't your bag, so I assumed a clip on version exists. Personally I objected to having to go 'smart casual' when I was in the Allen Stand last time I went to a Test Match there.

For members the Lord's website states "Gentlemen shall wear lounge suits or tailored jacket and trousers, shirt, tie or cravat and shoes with socks." as demonstrated below by a right old pair of members:

 

[kemptown kid]

We make the overwhelming majority of our own laws, and those laws which come from the EU are generally passed on the nod as they relate to wider things (e.g. aligning food standards or a response to international money laundering issues). The UK also has a veto on EU laws which it does not like, and an exemption from most of the areas where the EU applies law (e.g. the social chapter).

We already trade with the world on terms we dictate (as do other EU nations, such as the recent French deal with India), but the UK is also able to get preferential treatment as part of a massive trading bloc compared to what it is able to get on it's own. Let's take the example of the recent EU trade deal with Japan signed at the end of last year, what specifically about that do you feel the UK could have done better on had it negotiated a trade deal alone with the Japanese?

On immigration, as stated previously we already have full control over non-EU immigration. We also have plenty of scope within the Freedom of Movement legislation to restrict people arriving, the UK Government actively chooses not to enforce it, and has done ever since Maastricht. Germany, for example, applies many restrictions and prevents people from staying in Germany if they do not have a job within 6 months, for example. Many European nations prevent the claiming of certain state benefits, again perfectly acceptable within FoM legislation at an EU level.



Very well. Being in the EU has benefited the UK economy massively, lest we forget prior to joining we were widely regarded as "the sick man of Europe", and our economy is now built on the basis of providing a home within the EU for major multinational organisations and we are a boom nation for technology start-ups. Most of our big industries have thrived through being in the EU (computer games development, music production, the UK film industry). EU grants have bought many deprived UK towns and cities back to life, the Welsh valleys have benefited enormously from this for instance. Then you have the EU funded science and technology projects which have made the UK one of the world-leading countries for these industries, and helped to lower costs of drugs for the NHS as a result.

If you want to find out what the EU has funded in your local area, check out https://www.myeu.uk/. Even I was amazed at some of the things they are funding. I challenge you to find something in your local area you don't like.

Hard to argue with these excellent points which destroy most of the Brexiteers' nonsense about sovereignty and the supposed economic/trading benefits of life beyond the EU. Worth pointing out, also, the decades of peace between countries that waged 2 horrendous wars in the first half of the last century - the existence of the EU certainly helped. Plus the opportunities to travel, study, work live and love across 28 countries which the Brexiteers seek to deny to us and our children. The top dogs of Brexit have an (often self-serving)agenda of deregulation and 'leave it to the market' and, rightly, see the EU as a hindrance. Wrapping themselves in the Union Jack and stoking fear of foreigners and the modern world are hateful and dangerous tricks to win a wider audience.

 

[A1X]

Worth pointing out, also, the decades of peace between countries that waged 2 horrendous wars in the first half of the last century - the existence of the EU certainly helped.

It's not an argument I tend to go to very often as obviously there are other reasons beyond merely the EU as to why this has happened, but I was struck by someone posting a pictoral depiction of resolving European differences in 1918 vs 2018.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

The problem is that the EU don't want to do a deal.

Strange, as they have negotiated one. Did you miss the last 2 years?