[Politics] Brexit

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

no sensible, centrist Brexit supporting party exists

Indeed. Just as no sensible centrist resurection supporting religion exists...

*cough* there is no god/goodbrexit *cough*

 

[Baldseagull]

I'm sure you've just made an honest mistake here, but actually Hannan mispoke. If you watch the whole interview he says that the costs of the single market outweigh the benefits, and he talks about the fact that leaving the EU would not exclude us from the free market. He then repeats his point, but uses the word "single" in place of "free" by accident. The video was chopped up by pro remain groups to deliberately mislead by taking advantage of his misspeaking.

From the full interview:

“[businesses say] the costs of EU regulation outweigh the benefits of the Single Market ... I’m going to say this one last time: no-one in Brussels – I’ve been here for 16 years – has ever suggested that if we withdrew from the political aspects of union we would be excluded from the Free Market”

“There are plenty of exporters and entrepreneurs that understand there are better opportunities than under the current deal. But to repeat, absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market” - (he meant "free", not "single").

The difference, for Hannan, between the Free Market and the EU Single Market, is made clear in his book.

“We can say with some certainty that the costs of regulation in the EU outweigh the benefits of the single market” ('Why Vote Leave', Location 1066 in Kindle Edition)

“What is the alternative [to EU membership]? Well, all the options involve remaining part of the European free trade zone that stretches from non-EU Iceland to non-EU Turkey … when every non-EU territory from the Faroe Islands to Montenegro has access to the European free trade area it would be preposterous beyond words to claim that the UK, uniquely, would be denied full market access” (1534)

“It’ll be for the UK’s elected representatives to set the precise terms and conditions of our future relations with the EU. All we can do is set out some broad, obvious guidelines: we’d retain free trade with the single market” (1741) - ["with", not "in"].

What he says is that Switzerland and Norway have arrangements and we could have something like that, here he is explaining himself, Norway is in the single market, and the Swiss have a treaty giving them near full rights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sMX0wqr1dA
The trouble is, many others were using Turkey joining (not at all likely) and having freedom of movement rights, or Syrian Refugees given asylum in Germany coming here (not possible), and so ending freedom of movement has been decided by May as a must have of Brexit, till now anyway.

 

[Weststander]

What he says is that Switzerland and Norway have arrangements and we could have something like that, here he is explaining himself, Norway is in the single market, and the Swiss have a treaty giving them near full rights https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sMX0wqr1dA
The trouble is, many others were using Turkey joining (not at all likely) and having freedom of movement rights, or Syrian Refugees given asylum in Germany coming here (not possible), and so ending freedom of movement has been decided by May as a must have of Brexit, till now anyway.

Newsnight covered the Swiss - EU deal recently. Apparently it irks the EU, with several member states angry that it is so one-sided in favour of Switzerland. Unfortunately, they’re not going to sign another agreement like that.

 

[albion68]

The agony of choice! May is a useless, procrastinating bungler, now squatting in number 10. Cannot wait for her to be binned, but red Jezza's Marxist wonderland is not a place I want to visit either. If only the Lib Dems were not a pro EU party :-( no sensible, centrist Brexit supporting party exists

Is now fair to say Labour are now the Remain Party ignoring their leave voters ?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Could you imagine if the SNP had won Indyref1 and similar deceit, obfuscation and chicanery had been used to try and keep them in? We'd have 1000's of Robert the Bruce wannabes causing chaos.
.

Brexit was never offered on the GE ballot box by Tory, Liberal, Labour or SNP. Only UKIP offered that. And they were bum fudged in both the Cameron and May GEs. May was 'vote for us - we can do the Brexit wot you voted for ina refferfukkinrendum' but her victory was NEVER a victory for Brexit. It was a half arsed victory against gormless Corbyn. So your analogy, if I may be so bold, is utter bollocks.

 

[Baldseagull]

And for me Nick Boles. I would love to add many more.

Really?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Is now fair to say Labour are now the Remain Party ignoring their leave voters ?

No.

Actually the answer to all questions, apart from 'is this a cluster****' is no.

 

[Baldseagull]

It's clear beyond any doubt that he meant something different.

But if it serves your politics, who cares, right?

Pathetic.

It really is not clear in the interview he gave, and his later clarification he says was after a Swiss type arrangement (only better) with the EU on the single market.

 

[beorhthelm]

It’s clearly a trap.

I imagine the plan is for her to have a meeting and come out saying labour will not agree on anything and try and shift the blame of no deal.

Or they agree to pass the deal and when it’s a complete mess blame labour as well.

im not sure. the voting yesturday indicated total paralysis from the MPs to reach a compromise while voting along partisan lines. only way out is to de-politicise. if she does try to blame on Labour it wont wash at this stage and there's not the votes to deliver anything and no deal default, neither May or Corbyn want. how he deals with his remainers and she deals with the ERG will be interesting (splits?) but the rump of both parties will get the deal over the line and can pitch unified "followed the will of the people" and "close relations will be negotiated for future".

 

[Weststander]

It really is not clear in the interview he gave, and his later clarification he says was after a Swiss type arrangement (only better) with the EU on the single market.

See post #83299 - the EU are unhappy with the deal given to the Swiss, so will certainly never offer that to any other nation, let alone a better than that deal.

 

[albion68]

No.

Actually the answer to all questions, apart from 'is this a cluster****' is no.

Looks like they are using Brexit to get in to power ,they are doing a good job and still pretty much still be in the EU with customs union ,single market etc.

 

[Baldseagull]

My initial reaction to May's Statement today if if the Tories are going down they want to drag Labour with them by tainting them equally with the shit Withdrawal Agreement we'll get.

I think Labour should stick to their guns here. Theresa May has lost 3 times - her WA is her work alone and it's shit. 2nd Referendum or Customs Union will soon get a majority once MPs stop abstaining, are given a free vote and start going for their second choice.

It's incredible really, the Tories have turned an internal squabble into an issue that has divided the nation for probably a generation, their toxic coalition has wiped the Lib Dems off the face of the map and now they've turned their sights on Labour. As a Lib Dem member my advice to Corbyn is simple - tell her to f*ck off and go for a Customs Union / 2nd Referendum, do NOT repeat NOT touch the Tories with a bargepole.

Some sympathy with that view, I suspect TM is using Labours involvement to be the cause of a long extension, that is in truth required because she has taken us to the wire.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

WTF
We have already had a Remain or Leave referendum, you dont need to ask an "are you really sure" question again.
You have a decision to that question.
If you want a supplementary question asking which of the two versions of leaving (Deal or No Deal) should be applied, then ask away. Lets have that vote now on how we should Leave and put parliament out of its misery.
Your way doesnt even allow remainers though a vote on how we should Leave,....dont see why they should be excluded. your undemocratic loonery is reaching new heights.

Gosh. Didn't realise you thought that about a confirmatory vote/second referendum. Thanks for the heads-up.


PS: Quite happy to give remainers a vote on how we might leave. I thought it would be polite to give the want-to-be-poorer types a free run on this point, that's all.

 

[Weststander]

Looks like they are using Brexit to get in to power ,they are doing a good job and still pretty much still be in the EU with customs union ,single market etc.

Looks like they are using Brexit to TRY to get power - yes, covered in several articles about McDonnell and Starmer steering Corbyn into playing differing constituences by appearing as a Remainer in some, a Brexiteer in others.

Is it working? - no. Awful approval ratings of Corbyn as a leader in polling (even worse than May’s), with Labour backbench MP’s in Midland/Northern marginals desparate that no GE is called.

Customs Union/Freedom of Movement - Corbyn and McDonnell have openly fought against “the Capitalist Club” (their words) of the EU, all their political career. One of their main arguments is that freedom of movement gives a race to the bottom in wages and employee working conditions.

 

[pastafarian]

When we didn't start building Border posts, lorry parks at the ports, initiate the development of the IT systems and infrastructure and submit our WTO schedules within the first couple of months, it was obvious 'no deal' was a non-starter.

Please stop your WTO related nonsense now, its getting ridiculous
We did not submit our WTO schedule within the first couple of months because it was not possible to submit our WTO schedule within the first couple of months, nothing to do with no deal being a non starter.
A schedule has to include our submissions on Tariff Rate Quotas, before we could do that we had to negotiate with the EU, separately from withdrawal talks, a methodology for dividing up the existing tariff rate quotas between UK and the EU, when this is completed you need a Council and Commission decision to acknowledge the quotas methodology has been agreed and a subsequent ruling therefore to allow an existing member to be able to submit its own WTO schedule because it is departing the Union, this was done in june 2018, we submitted our draft schedule to the WTO shortly after that in july 2018.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

PS: Quite happy to give remainers a vote on how we might leave. I thought it would be polite to give the want-to-be-poorer types a free run on this point, that's all.

Crikey. You are an odd one. Do you have a lot of money on a bet we would leave, from before the original vote? It has to be the only explanation. The rest of us are pounds down, looking at more, post-suicide

 

[peterward]

Looks like they are using Brexit to get in to power ,they are doing a good job and still pretty much still be in the EU with customs union ,single market etc.

If youre talking about Labour? they are..... Much of what they are doing in shifting positions, is designed to cause maximum chaos,to either split the Tories or profit from the chaos they are in part creating, to engineer a GE.

 

[Baldseagull]

The second referendum campaign that started at the end of June 2016 by remain establishment figures, most recently called "people's vote" is now called confirmatory vote..... Are all the same thing.

A brazen attempt that started in June 2016 to overturn the referendum or have another go until you get the "right" result, as has happened in numerous EU referendums across Europe.

How about the question of leave or Remain was settled in 2016 in the largest ever democratic process in our nation's history and once we actually leave the EU (which we haven't) and the vote is implemented start your campaign for a vote to get back in..... Or how about a confirmatory referendum with various brexit options like Norway, CU, WTO etc on the ballot but not remain as that "people's vote" has already happened and is still not implemented?

But amongst leave voters, there are some that would prefer to remain than have a Norway deal, and most remainers given a choice of only leave options would probably vote for Norway, it is possible that we would end up with a Brexit that remainers chose, while most leavers would have preferred to remain.

 

[pastafarian]

Gosh. Didn't realise you thought that about a confirmatory vote/second referendum. Thanks for the heads-up.


PS: Quite happy to give remainers a vote on how we might leave. I thought it would be polite to give the want-to-be-poorer types a free run on this point, that's all.

I have posted it a number of times, if you want a new referendum following on from the democratic decision to leave,asking how we should leave then ask the binary leaving question.

A/ Leave the EU with the withdrawal agreement
or
B/Leave the EU without a withdrawal agreement

Remainers get to vote as well obviously......Remainers dont want this question asked though.

 

[peterward]

I cant believe you FBPE twitter types still keep saying with your cherry picked phrase that he was saying we remain members of the single market, he wasn’t, he was always quite clear we should be free of ECJ jurisdiction, the body that regulates the single market, free of the EU governance on the single market that imposes domestic technical standards and regulations on the whole economy, but trade with the single market with preferential parts of it, outside of being members of it, always maintainedd definitely not be in the EEA and was clear end free movement but compromise on parts of it. There is no way that is remaining members of the single market. He was always consistent on this.
Do you get some sort of weird kick out of believing without question random peoples twatter opinions and reposting the bullcrap..
Nearly everyone in the world has access to and trades with the single market, just on differing preferential terms.



Daniel Hannan:
“Repeat after me. Single market membership and single market access are not the same thing.”
“Britain, as a relatively large economy which exports more to non-EU than to EU markets, would be better off trading freely with the single market than belonging to it”

https://www.conservativehome.com/th...gle-market-access-are-not-the-same-thing.html

The intellectual voice of the Leave campaign. Dan Hannan is a brilliant, moderate MEP. His pre referendum speech in the Spectator EU debate was right on the money and stole the evening, what an orator, and his masterclass was as right then as it still is today!