[Politics] Brexit

[Is it PotG?]

Because any second vote would be explicit and potentially instantly legally binding, such as in the proposal put forward by Peter Kyle.

I fail to see how our trusted and loved MPs would act any differently. The referendum was morally binding, and look at how self-interest has taken over. Legally binding, morally binding or fingers crossed binding, the response should be the same.

 

[pasty]

Remain would not win a second referendum.

Most remainers I've read about (on here, in loads of articles - no, not in the Daily Mail - and talking to friends and colleagues) just don't want to know why people voted (and will vote) leave. Remainers do not get it, did not expect it, have made no effort to understand the views of people like me and simply branded us thick or uninformed. Well that's why the same will happen again, if a new referendum occurs.

It is stupidity to repeat the same behaviour expecting a different outcome. There would not be a different outcome because no remainer I've seen has bothered to try to understand all the different reasons up and down the country, that led to a 'leave' majority. Also, anyone who was on the fence before cannot possibly be on the fence now, and the 'on the fencers' voted for the status quo, as you would if unsure. Some of those will have shifted to a leave perspective in the past 2 years.

Whilst you might not be willing or able to listen to or attempt to understand why intelligent people (yep, like me) voted 'leave', by contrast, I can understand why most people I know voted remain. Usually they say things like they have family abroad/have a European wife, etc. I get that. It was about what was best for them in their bubble.

I voted because I believe leaving the EU would be better for the Country and I still believe that. Three of my kids are scientists, either employed or students, who will always need to collaborate abroad - and I still voted to leave. And they were on the fence remainers in 2016, didn't know enough about the issue.

Two of them would now vote leave.

I wasn't expecting the resulting mixture of sabotage and cock up though.

I personally think remain would walk a second referendum simply because the leave vote would be split. Many leave voters won't have wanted a hard, no-deal brexit, and many leave voters won't have wanted a soft brexit. Those that would not want a hard brexit may well then vote remain, rather than end up with a no-deal scenario.

With remain, there is no middle ground, it is simply do not leave.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

She clearly has no idea what taxation without representation actually means. If anything what she's actually arguing for is the vote to be extended to 16 year olds, that's true taxation without representation currently.

She was the leader of UKIP very briefly.

 

[The Clamp]

According to a radio piece this morning our very own Worthing will be the second worst impacted town in the U.K. if a no deal goes ahead. Not averse to screwing over their own, these leavers.

 

[pb21]

I fail to see how our trusted and loved MPs would act any differently. The referendum was morally binding, and look at how self-interest has taken over. Legally binding, morally binding or fingers crossed binding, the response should be the same.

If the result of any second vote was instantly legally binding and based on a defined version of Brexit I am unsure how the response could be the same?

The 'self interest' as you put it is MPs not agreeing over what Brexit should be like. When you have Mogg and Johnson not upholding the 'morally binding' referendum (not sure who arbitrates over the moral position of a referendum) and disagreeing with Gove and Davis who are upholding this (who all voted to leave), then the problem is with the first referendum.

 

[Is it PotG?]

The 'self interest' as you put it is MPs not agreeing over what Brexit should be like. When you have Mogg and Johnson not upholding the 'morally binding' referendum (not sure who arbitrates over the moral position of a referendum) and disagreeing with Gove and Davis who are upholding this (who all voted to leave), then the problem is with the first referendum.

So that would differ how with 'legally'? Who is legally right in this instance?

The spoilers/stallers claim they accept we're going but can't agree on a way. Who would decide legally what the route out was?

A vote for a second referendum is like voting for anarchy.

 

[Cozzy]

As a no longer 'local' living in the area I can predict this vote will be to remain based solely on the premise that Sussex in general voted remain and they wont have changed views to swing it the other way. I suspect a second vote nationwide would not change too much as people will simply have entrench themselves in how they voted first time & the only thing that changes that is (sad to say) the deaths of previous voters & the introduction of new voters predominately young people who are remainers in general.

I actually say lets have a vote every year for five years and that way its best out of 5 , I mean not honouring the first vote then why should anyone honour the second or third ?

 

[nigeyb]

I agree that just putting "leave" (or even "remain") is way too vague. Most people didn't (and still don't) really know what they were voting for. To force people to really engage with the decision they make the options should be specific and unambiguous.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Blimey....

View attachment 105771

Basically they want to highlight a Vienna Convention clause about ripping up treaties.


Which is fine. The clause exists afterall.


But if it's put in the legal advice with too much bluster, then it's going to cause a problem with the EU.

The trick is to mention it in the advice very softly, and very diplomatically.

'Diplomatically' !!! Lol. This shower of a Government doesn't recognise that concept unless it's dressed in stomping armoured boots !

 

[Postman Pat]

She was the leader of UKIP very briefly.

Jesus I thought she was taking the piss out of the other person, didn't realise she actually meant that!

 

[Is it PotG?]

Not my MP, but hey-ho

 

[lawros left foot]

I see, they should have gone for a kebab, right?

They could get one of the 77 million Turks that Leave told us was coming to live here, to cook it for them.

 

[A1X]

She was the leader of UKIP very briefly.

I assume ousted for being too intelligent?

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

Amendment (C) tonight is the biggy for me.

- Revoking Article 50 by March 29th. ( An agreed deal before then would obviously 'trump' this).

This sets up a vote in Parliament as May's Deal v Remain.

Everything else off the table.

But the amendment won't pass.

Or it may not even be picked by the speaker.

 

[A1X]

View attachment 105772

Not my MP, but hey-ho

If he can muster enough support then fair play. However it is worth remembering one of the elements of last night which is that no Parliament can bind it's successors, so if there were to be a General Election then it could easily choose to hold another referendum, and is why last night's vote (while symbolic) matters little without an agreed extension, approved deal or revocation and change to the existing legislation accordingly.

 

[pb21]

So that would differ how with 'legally'? Who is legally right in this instance?

The spoilers/stallers claim they accept we're going but can't agree on a way. Who would decide legally what the route out was?

A vote for a second referendum is like voting for anarchy.

If the Kyle amendment was agreed in Parliament then a combination of Parliament and the electorate would have decided legally what the route out was.

I would agree that a second referendum with an undefined leave option not backed up by some legality would not be ideal.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Crisis? What crisis?

[tweet]1106145071211134976[/tweet]

 

[Is it PotG?]

If the Kyle amendment was agreed in Parliament then a combination of Parliament and the electorate would have decided legally what the route out was.

.

How, when they cannot agree now? Unless it's just stalling...….

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

They could get one of the 77 million Turks that Leave told us was coming to live here, to cook it for them.

Tis' a good point, and the saving on the side of the bus could pay for it?

 

[ManOfSussex]

If he can muster enough support then fair play. However it is worth remembering one of the elements of last night which is that no Parliament can bind it's successors, so if there were to be a General Election then it could easily choose to hold another referendum, and is why last night's vote (while symbolic) matters little without an agreed extension, approved deal or revocation and change to the existing legislation accordingly.

A lot of signatories to it. A who's who in the Westminster freak show parade basically:

Lee Rowley
Nigel Dodds
Gareth Snell
Caroline Flint
George Eustice
Anne-Marie Trevelyan
Mr Simon Clarke
Kate Hoey
Andrea Jenkyns
Mr David Jones
Sir William Cash
Derek Thomas
Robert Halfon
Mr Richard Bacon
Mr Philip Dunne
Sir Robert Syms
Sir Jeffrey M. Donaldson
Sammy Wilson
Mr Gregory Campbell
Paul Girvan
Jim Shannon
Ian Paisley
Emma Little Pengelly
Gavin Robinson
David Simpson
Sir Mike Penning
Mr Charles Walker
Sir David Amess
Fiona Bruce
Richard Drax
Henry Smith
Mr William Wragg
Bob Stewart
Will Quince
Chris Green
Nigel Mills
Mr John Whittingdale
Martin Vickers
Greg Hands
Julia Lopez
Andrew Lewer
Grant Shapps
Ms Nadine Dorries
Adam Holloway
Andrew Rosindell
Frank Field
Bill Wiggin
John Mann
Rosie Cooper
John Spellar
Kelvin Hopkins
Mr Ronnie Campbell
Mike Hill
Graham Stringer
Grahame Morris
Mr Dennis Skinner
Sir Kevin Barron
Mr Philip Hollobone
Scott Mann
Adam Afriyie
Mr Steve Baker
Crispin Blunt
Bob Blackman
Mr Peter Bone
Sir Graham Brady
Andrew Bridgen
Conor Burns
Rehman Chishti
Robert Courts
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown
Tracey Crouch
David T. C. Davies
Steve Double
James Duddridge
Mr Iain Duncan Smith
Charlie Elphicke
Mr Mark Francois
Mr Marcus Fysh
Zac Goldsmith
James Gray
Mr Mark Harper
Sir John Hayes
Eddie Hughes
Mr Ranil Jayawardena
Sir Bernard Jenkin
Boris Johnson
Gareth Johnson
Daniel Kawczynski
John Lamont
Mr Jonathan Lord
Tim Loughton
Esther McVey
Mark Menzies
Mrs Sheryll
Murray Neil Parish
Priti Patel
Mark Pritchard
Tom Pursglove
Dominic Raab
Mr Laurence Robertson
Ross Thomson
Michael Tomlinson
Craig Tracey
Mr Shailesh Vara
Theresa Villiers
Julian Sturdy
Craig Mackinlay
Michael Fabricant
Mr Owen Paterson
Suella Braverman
Sir Christopher Chope