[Politics] Brexit

[Pavilionaire]

So should England be dictated to by Scotland? I notice the same argument is never applied in reverse. If it unfair that the majority vote is carried out, how on Earth could it be fair that you argue that the minority should overrule the majority? That is extremely illogical.

I'm not saying that. If we are one nation then why the f*ck has Scotland got a Parliament in the first place? Yorkshire has the same population - 5.4 million, why don't we give them one too? If we offered them a Parliament they'd bite your hand off, such is their superiority complex.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Hi JC, a couple of days ago we were talking about what you would have liked to have seen done differently and you replied



I had a couple more questions, but we've both been waylaid since then.



So i was wondering, any thoughts on who should have led the Government and how far no deal planning should have gone ?

Oh yes, my apologies for not replying sooner.

My main point was people who lead the government both PM and a majority in the cabinet should actually believe in a course of action to have any chance of delivering it succesfully. It would also mean Brexiteers in government having campaigned for it would be entirely responsible for delivering on promises made. But for what it's worth my preference would have been Gove as he seems to have the intellectual rigour and political skills to lead well. I expect this as with any other Brexiteer for PM choice will be met with hoots of derision from many on here though!

No deal planning should be far more advanced and have been properly funded from the start. At the very least it would have increased pressure on the EU side if they believed we were serious and preparing for a no deal if talks failed. Interestingly I see B of E Governer Carney has cut the projected damage no deal could do by 50% just because of the measures the government have belatedly put in place. I wonder how much further any impact could have been mitigated with committed planning and funding. I also wonder if we do end up with no deal and most of the predicted terrors don't arise, much like project fear, if he will also the claim credit just by introducing a few stimulus measures.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I'm not saying that. If we are one nation then why the f*ck has Scotland got a Parliament in the first place? Yorkshire has the same population - 5.4 million, why don't we give them one too? If we offered them a Parliament they'd bite your hand off, such is their superiority complex.

I apologise, I completely misconstrued your point. I have seen the Scottish majority for remain as a justification for ignoring Brexit argued. I wrongly thought that is what you were getting. Re-reading your post, I think you make a very good point about the inconsistencies evident in the UK political system.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I apologise, I completely misconstrued your point. I have seen the Scottish majority for remain as a justification for ignoring Brexit argued. I wrongly thought that is what you were getting. Re-reading your post, I think you make a very good point about the inconsistencies evident in the UK political system.

If we leave the EU then we will be doing it not to make ourselves better off but because it was "The Will Of The People", democracy in action, we have to go with the result regardless of the consequences. But what IS democracy here in the UK when we treat Scotland, Wales and NI separately from England by giving them a Parliament / Assemblies? We're happy for them to feel like they are separate nations but are happy to shit on Scotland and NI with Brexit.
Meanwhile, there's no representative for England, we don't even have an anthem. Outside of sport the concept of England might as well not exist.

However, I wouldn't want an English Parliament anyway. I have much more in common with the Scots than most of the Leave-voting population of the North of England and I was born in North London.

Theresa May had to pay £1 billion to the DUP for their votes? Is THAT democracy. She is offering Labour Leave-voting constituencies £1.6 billion over 4 years if they will vote for her Withdrawal Agreement - is that democracy?

This is one f*cked up situation.

 

[nicko31]

And have they not done that yet?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-44495598

NHS funding: Theresa May unveils £20bn boost

£20 billion a year. £380 million a week. Even my Tory business calculator doesn't have that many digits, but I believe thats correct.

Let's actually get out of the EU first before you start calling them liars!

Add to the debt pile that has doubled since 2010.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

I'm not saying that. If we are one nation then why the f*ck has Scotland got a Parliament in the first place? Yorkshire has the same population - 5.4 million, why don't we give them one too? If we offered them a Parliament they'd bite your hand off, such is their superiority complex.

The claim could only not be a lie if we saved £350m sent to the EU every week and gave it to the NHS. We don't send the EU £350m a week so that's the first lie. To refute the second lie you simply have to post details of how not being in the EU will save the nation £350m a week that can be spent on the NHS.

Any additional money the government will spend on ANY public service will be in spite of Brexit not because of it.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

The claim could only not be a lie if we saved £350m sent to the EU every week and gave it to the NHS. We don't send the EU £350m a week so that's the first lie. To refute the second lie you simply have to post details of how not being in the EU will save the nation £350m a week that can be spent on the NHS.

Any additional money the government will spend on ANY public service will be in spite of Brexit not because of it.

Sorry Pav - replied to the wrong post. I was responding to Tubby , one above you.

 

[pastafarian]

So our opening gambit in our free trade negotiations with the USA is telling them we will only allow them to export high quality grain fed beef and non-chlorinated chicken to us. You do realise that compromises that may be available to the largest trading bloc in the world may not be available to Britain ?

I can see this going well

I have see the rubbish you post on the WTO, you are the last person anyone would seek opinion on regarding trade.

Under it's previous editor maybe. Not the current one, who's a dyed in the wool Paul Dacre protege.

Yes it was a pro-remain paper before the vote and now understands the democratic vote must be respected and brexit must happen, just like our PM, who supported remain prior to the vote but understands democratic process and that Leave won and therefore the decision to Leave given by the people must be adhered to,what do you find so confusing about that?

Was George Osborne part of the Remain Campaign? What was his position?

You do realise the government took a remain position prior to the vote don’t you.
Your argument in defence of the remain side lies is to ask if the liars were actually in the official remain campaign or not…..genius. Your post count is going to substantially diminish if you apply your own logic and stick to accusing only those who were part of the official Leave campaign.

I am genuinely interested in listening to the Leavers' opinions and would like to know WHY you think it is better to leave because I cannot see a single advantage. Please give intelligent and reasoned responses.

There is a thread on it somewhere, in fact numerous other threads as to why people were going to vote Leave instead of remain, loads of reading material. I see all your posts on here bar 1 late last year have been in the past few weeks, you are a bit late to the party in suddenly asking now pre-referendum questions on why people want to vote to Leave. Shouldnt you have been asking these questions earlier instead of going over old ground.

There's a funny silence, while I wait for a reply. All I'm asking for is a reason why you think its a good idea, and then maybe you can persuade me to change my mind.

You dont need to be persuaded to change your mind. The vote has happened and the decision has been made. Its up to you if you move on with your life and accept the decision or not.

 

[pastafarian]

OK, but for the LAST time on this thread ( I must have posted this dozens of times so far ) because .....

I do not believe the aim of ever further and closer European integration is a good one. I believe that the aim just reduces independent countries to vassel states of a political organisation. I believe the EU organisation is fundamentally undemocratic and corrupt. It has forced changes of government. It removes power from the people to politicitians that have affectively been appointed not elected ( Junker as an example ). The EU believe one model fits all ..... it doesn't and the Eurozone and the their ideas on non-EU immigration back this up ( quotas etc ). I believe the EU would rather force a change of government in a country than accept a democratic decision ( Greece and Italy are good examples ). I feel UK values of fair play and democracy are not represented at the EU and so the UK should not be part of the EU.

I see the EU commission started the ball rolling recently on proposals to end the national veto powers on some tax matters and move to qualified majority voting rather than unanimous.

“Times have changed! Holding tight to unanimity to protect national tax regimes … is based on myth, not reality,” Economic Affairs Commissioner Pierre Moscovici told reporters at the European Parliament in Strasbourg.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-19-224_en.htm
https://www.euractiv.com/section/economy-jobs/news/eu-wants-end-to-member-state-veto-on-tax/

This is the sort of constant drip drip drip towards further integration (if successful) that I am glad we will be free of.

 

[Blue3]

Oh yes, my apologies for not replying sooner.

My main point was people who lead the government both PM and a majority in the cabinet should actually believe in a course of action to have any chance of delivering it succesfully. It would also mean Brexiteers in government having campaigned for it would be entirely responsible for delivering on promises made. But for what it's worth my preference would have been Gove as he seems to have the intellectual rigour and political skills to lead well. I expect this as with any other Brexiteer for PM choice will be met with hoots of derision from many on here though!

No deal planning should be far more advanced and have been properly funded from the start. At the very least it would have increased pressure on the EU side if they believed we were serious and preparing for a no deal if talks failed. Interestingly I see B of E Governer Carney has cut the projected damage no deal could do by 50% just because of the measures the government have belatedly put in place. I wonder how much further any impact could have been mitigated with committed planning and funding. I also wonder if we do end up with no deal and most of the predicted terrors don't arise, much like project fear, if he will also the claim credit just by introducing a few stimulus measures.

Apologies jumping into your conversation but I agree Gove nasty little git that he is happens to be the most capable minister in the sorry excuse for a government that we currently have and he should have been given the job as Brexit secretary from the start.

Mrs May has made error after error in appointing individuals way above their capabilities David Davis, Boris, Dr Fox and let's not forget failing Grayling

Unless it was Mrs Mays plan all along give the jobs to the fools who cannot deliver but are also so vain that they blunder on regardless and posting the only Brexitee with the ability to deliver to a pig farm somwhere in Norfolk

 

[nicko31]

Remember the lies on the side of the bus?

Well, its important to remember where Britain is heading in terms of borrowing in the face of Brexit.

Governments own figures, get ready for tax rises folks and more cuts.

But its all worth it, isn't it?

 

[WATFORD zero]

Oh yes, my apologies for not replying sooner.

My main point was people who lead the government both PM and a majority in the cabinet should actually believe in a course of action to have any chance of delivering it succesfully. It would also mean Brexiteers in government having campaigned for it would be entirely responsible for delivering on promises made. But for what it's worth my preference would have been Gove as he seems to have the intellectual rigour and political skills to lead well. I expect this as with any other Brexiteer for PM choice will be met with hoots of derision from many on here though!

No deal planning should be far more advanced and have been properly funded from the start. At the very least it would have increased pressure on the EU side if they believed we were serious and preparing for a no deal if talks failed. Interestingly I see B of E Governer Carney has cut the projected damage no deal could do by 50% just because of the measures the government have belatedly put in place. I wonder how much further any impact could have been mitigated with committed planning and funding. I also wonder if we do end up with no deal and most of the predicted terrors don't arise, much like project fear, if he will also the claim credit just by introducing a few stimulus measures.

I'm sorry but it appears you are another that wants to use 'no deal' as a negotiation tool rather than an end game.

Both ourselves and the EU know exactly what the other is doing, so if we really want them to believe no deal is an option we have to go all in.

We have to build the lorry parks, customs posts in NI, commission the IT systems and infrastructure, recruit and train the staff. Is this 10s of billions of investment over a number of years really justifiable in order to improve our negotiating position?

Because a couple of days dredging and 80 trucks and a bin lorry on the M20 really isn't going to fool anybody

(And won't and hasn't effected Carney's predictions?)

And you and me both know we won't end up with 'no deal'

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Remember the lies on the side of the bus?

Well, its important to remember where Britain is heading in terms of borrowing in the face of Brexit.

Governments own figures, get ready for tax rises folks and more cuts.

But its all worth it, isn't it?

View attachment 105446

It's always groundhog day on this thread. I remember you parroting similar claims from the 'governments own figures' during the campaign, according to HM Treasury and you 'we should be in recession with at least half a million more unemployed' ... what happened pinocchio?

 

[nicko31]

It's always groundhog day on this thread. I remember you parroting similar claims from the 'governments own figures' during the campaign, according to HM Treasury and you 'we should be in recession with at least half a million more unemployed' ... what happened pinocchio?

You're making things up now. Please face reality....

 

[Motogull]

Is anyone irrespective of how they voted?

I've heard that May privately is a brexiteer. That would explain how she won the leadership, but I'm not sure it explains how or why she's made a complete abortion of brexit.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I'm sorry but it appears that you want to use 'no deal' as a negotiation tool rather than an end game.

Both ourselves and the EU know exactly what the other is doing, so if we really want them to believe no deal is an option we have to go all in.

We have to build the lorry parks, customs posts in NI, commission the IT systems and infrastructure, recruit and train the staff. Is this 10s of billions of investment over a number of years really justifiable in order to improve our negotiating position?

Because a couple of days dredging and 80 trucks and a bin lorry on the M20 really isn't going to fool anybody

(And won't and hasn't effected Carney's predictions?)

And you and me both know we won't end up with 'no deal'

If we go all in as you suggest no deal could become a self-fulfilling destination as we have spent all the money, prepared as much as possible so reducing the impact. It's a matter of degree, the governments preparations have been late in the day and not well funded. There is plenty of scope to make them more credible but not go all in.

As we don't appear to know what we are doing I doubt the EU would agree they know our every move. The EU side have been making preparations for no deal so they do think it's an option.

It's unlikely but still possible.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Apologies jumping into your conversation but I agree Gove nasty little git that he is happens to be the most capable minister in the sorry excuse for a government that we currently have and he should have been given the job as Brexit secretary from the start.

Mrs May has made error after error in appointing individuals way above their capabilities David Davis, Boris, Dr Fox and let's not forget failing Grayling

Unless it was Mrs Mays plan all along give the jobs to the fools who cannot deliver but are also so vain that they blunder on regardless and posting the only Brexitee with the ability to deliver to a pig farm somwhere in Norfolk

If that is true about May and it being her plan all along, perhaps she is rather more intelligent than she is made out to be?

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

I've heard that May privately is a brexiteer. That would explain how she won the leadership, but I'm not sure it explains how or why she's made a complete abortion of brexit.

Snigger.

 

[ManOfSussex]

A poll in tomorrow's Irish Times - 67% of people in Northern Ireland in favour of the Common Market 2.0 option for The UK.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/pol...h-handling-of-brexit-by-may-and-dup-1.3818264

Still, they're not English so their views are irrelevant and they really should know their place.

 

[Two Professors]

I am genuinely interested in listening to the Leavers' opinions and would like to know WHY you think it is better to leave because I cannot see a single advantage. Please give intelligent and reasoned responses.

My main reason for voting Leave,and one I have mentioned numerous times,is I want out before the EU dies.With its central banking,currency based on bad debt,and colossal bureaucracy,it's just like the USSR revisited.Brexit might be financially damaging,but it won't be as bad as staying in.It's dying,and trying to save it as a whole means the death of Europe.Only a two-tier Euro holds out some hope,but it's politically unacceptable.Even Draghi can't lighten the gloom.