[Politics] Brexit

[neilbard]

“When Columbus lived, people thought that the earth was flat. They believed the Atlantic Ocean to be filled with monsters large enough to devour their ships, and with fearful waterfalls over which their frail vessels would plunge to destruction. Columbus had to fight these foolish beliefs in order to get men to sail with him. He felt sure the earth was round.”
–Emma Miler Bolenius, American Schoolbook Author, 1919

 

[heathgate]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ver-jobs-and-investment-are-simple-fallacies/

When considering "expert" opinions, shouldn't we consider track record? This chap, an economics professor, was right about the ERM and right about the Euro. Shouldn't we listen to him, rather than all the "experts" that have been wrong time and time again?


Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[cunning fergus]

So I get told I'm a fool and spouting nonsense, and I'm the one throwing insults?

Where have I even insulted him!? I called him a politician!!

Yeah whatever.

But you are a fool and continue to act foolishly by pretending you are not a Tory.

There are plenty of Tories on here that make a credible case for remain on the basis of the economic benefits for global capitalism and (for want of a better word) the continued financial advancement of the establishment; or as one committed Tory on here would describe them......."the intelligentsia".

This line of argument is unequivocally correct as on a daily basis different capitalist and establishment cohorts step forward to back the remain campaign lead by the Tory party leader.

That is YOUR side of the debate, that is who you are aligned with..........so support them.

Those on the other side, despite being a side lead by Johnson, are the traditional British working class. This is not a myth or my opinion it is fact.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum

What is worse is that the party of the traditional working class know it too, but like they have over the last 20 years, they are aligned with Tory policy. During this week's campaigning the leadership finally woke up to their self inflicted problem and advocated reform on EU freedom of movement.

If they had any Balls they would campaign for OUT like Corbyn would have done had he kept his political convictions. He hasn't so he is once again turning his back on the British working class and aligning with the Tories.

He is a fool too.

 

[Half Time Pies]

What on earth are you going on about?

EU freedom of movement means EU citizens can move around the EU and work where they want, ergo the UK exercises no control on labour from the EU. In the context of being a member of the EU this means it is a free labour market.

An EU wide free labour market is a Tory wet dream because it evidently benefits employers who have access to a largely limitless pool of labour. There is no jam for the workers, they will just have to accept lower conditions and protections.

For those of us of a certain age zero and political persuasion zero hour contracts and minimum wage jobs are an anathema. It was not this way previously, this new dawn is a relatively new development for British workers.

You may want to believe that working class discontent with the status quo is really about prejudice and bigotry, but that is more arrogance on a par with sentiments such as British workers are lazy, a charge that would draw a sharp intake of breath if such generalisations were applied to other nationalities.

As I have highlighted its Labour MPs who are for remain now lining up to highlight their concerns about the EUs commitment to freedom of movement.........but you know best don't you Tory boy.

Seriously??....a free labour market is when wages are set by the forces of supply and demand, this doesn't change if you use the term in a EU context!

You are also twisting my words..the working class discontent with the status quo is not about bigotry or prejudice it is about real things, decimation in public services, low wages, high housing costs, stagnated living standards. Whether you chose to ignore it or not some politicians and media outlets are peddling the idea that Jonny Foreigner is responsible for our countries myriad of problems. This is clouding the real issues, that those that the financial sector which caused the last economy have got away largely unpunished and unreformed, that wealthy tax dodgers refuse to pay their taxes while austerity is decimating public services, that successive governments have failed to address a growing skills shortage and that we don’t build nearly enough houses. None of these things will be solved by leaving the EU.

Look at the leave website and you will see the front page is almost exclusively about immigration, look at UKIP’s new poster with queues of refugees, the politics of division and fear have well and truly taken over and stifled the chance of any real debate. How can you deny that this isn’t the case when portions of the working class are now supporting UKIP, a party who backs the governments Austerity plans.

Oh and one final thing…brandishing everyone who disagrees with you a Tory boy wont help you win the argument, you obviously have some good points to make but the mudslinging comes across as a little immature.

 

[Sorrel]

Here is the full text of The Times leader. It is an excellent, thoughtful and well-written piece and I urge everyone to read it.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/r...w?shareToken=1516717a913edfa20d09f27f111bdfe2

If we could guarantee that our government would change their attitude to the EU afterwards - and try and lead a change in its systems and behaviours I would be tempted by the Remain side. I have no real wish to leave the single market, for example.

But I don't believe it - a vote to Remain looks to me like a vote for exactly the status quo as it is now and will be used by those with a vested interest in no change as proof that the voters support the current system. I don't want to be part of that.

 

[jgmcdee]

“When Columbus lived, people thought that the earth was flat. They believed the Atlantic Ocean to be filled with monsters large enough to devour their ships, and with fearful waterfalls over which their frail vessels would plunge to destruction. Columbus had to fight these foolish beliefs in order to get men to sail with him. He felt sure the earth was round.”
–Emma Miler Bolenius, American Schoolbook Author, 1919

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

 

[Bold Seagull]

But you are a fool and continue to act foolishly by pretending you are not a Tory.

There are plenty of Tories on here that make a credible case for remain on the basis of the economic benefits for global capitalism and (for want of a better word) the continued financial advancement of the establishment; or as one committed Tory on here would describe them......."the intelligentsia".

This line of argument is unequivocally correct as on a daily basis different capitalist and establishment cohorts step forward to back the remain campaign lead by the Tory party leader.

That is YOUR side of the debate, that is who you are aligned with..........so support them.

Those on the other side, despite being a side lead by Johnson, are the traditional British working class. This is not a myth or my opinion it is fact.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum

What is worse is that the party of the traditional working class know it too, but like they have over the last 20 years, they are aligned with Tory policy. During this week's campaigning the leadership finally woke up to their self inflicted problem and advocated reform on EU freedom of movement.

If they had any Balls they would campaign for OUT like Corbyn would have done had he kept his political convictions. He hasn't so he is once again turning his back on the British working class and aligning with the Tories.

He is a fool too.

I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day with you calling me a fool again? It is really bothering me. I suspect I'll have [MENTION=20840]The Rivet[/MENTION] on me in a minute trying to crawl back up your backside, but that would be difficult given your head is already there.

This country has democratically returned a Tory government for 41 years out of 71 since the end of WWII. This country has elected those governments to represent them. Labour hasn't aligned itself with Tory policy, it has aligned itself with what it believes the people will elect - the people you are saying they are turning their back on, elections and voting tell you what people want, that is what Blair understood only too well. That is British democracy as it stands irrespective of the EU.

A referendum, any kind of referendum is an opportunity to give those in power a bloody nose because it isn't based on constituencies and every vote is worth the same and every vote is counted. As the article says, it gives people a chance to say they are not happy - they're not really bothered about the arguments because they don't feel they can be any worse off than they are already (this is the crux of your article).
Quote
What has any of this got to do with the EU? Not much, but such is the nature of referendums: offer people a ballot paper, and they will focus whatever they feel strongly about on to it.

They know that the Labour Party they want can't get elected under the current democratic system because the constituency marginals show that Labour have to turn to the centre in order to win the swing seats they need to gain power. The working class vote in this regard for Brexit isn't about the EU, it isn't about Labour, it feels like a chance for a revolution, regardless of what that revolution is. I'm currently reading Animal Farm to my daughter, wonderful to go through Orwell's great work again.

It won't work though. When the dust settles, Brexit won't deliver them a left of centre government, it won't make them better off, it won't make our democracy fairer or more equitable, it won't shake the establishment to its knees. The EU isn't the reason our democracy returns right or to central party politics for the past 37 years. Brexit won't end austerity, it won't save our public services, it won't change immigration. The EU is separate from the Tory party, separate from our democracy - that is the real crux of the matter, having a voice. I don't believe that voice will have any greater chance of being heard on an exit. I fear that it could be quietened even further.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Seriously??....a free labour market is when wages are set by the forces of supply and demand, this doesn't change if you use the term in a EU context!

You are also twisting my words..the working class discontent with the status quo is not about bigotry or prejudice it is about real things, decimation in public services, low wages, high housing costs, stagnated living standards. Whether you chose to ignore it or not some politicians and media outlets are peddling the idea that Jonny Foreigner is responsible for our countries myriad of problems. This is clouding the real issues, that those that the financial sector which caused the last economy have got away largely unpunished and unreformed, that wealthy tax dodgers refuse to pay their taxes while austerity is decimating public services, that successive governments have failed to address a growing skills shortage and that we don’t build nearly enough houses. None of these things will be solved by leaving the EU.

Look at the leave website and you will see the front page is almost exclusively about immigration, look at UKIP’s new poster with queues of refugees, the politics of division and fear have well and truly taken over and stifled the chance of any real debate. How can you deny that this isn’t the case when portions of the working class are now supporting UKIP, a party who backs the governments Austerity plans.

Oh and one final thing…brandishing everyone who disagrees with you a Tory boy wont help you win the argument, you obviously have some good points to make but the mudslinging comes across as a little immature.

People are genuinly concerned about immigration in this country, but time and time again people concerns have been swept underneath the carpet by politicians own interests, and their political parties own values. If we truly want everyone to come together again one day, then politicians regardless of their values, need to come together and start listening to the people. I think Leave is quite clear, instead of going to the extremes of the argument and quoting a UKIP poster, a large majority of people are happy with migration, they just want it controlled so it works for everyone, honestly what is wrong with this.

 

[5ways]

If we could guarantee that our government would change their attitude to the EU afterwards - and try and lead a change in its systems and behaviours I would be tempted by the Remain side. I have no real wish to leave the single market, for example.

But I don't believe it - a vote to Remain looks to me like a vote for exactly the status quo as it is now and will be used by those with a vested interest in no change as proof that the voters support the current system. I don't want to be part of that.

There is a clear message that people want to the EU to change. Ultimately I think the point of remaining is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

There is a clear message that people want to the EU to change. Ultimately I think the point of remaining is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

So what reform can you see coming down the line for us if we Remain? Will there be one for free movement of people?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yesterday, when campaigning had supposedly been suspended, I received through my door an 'official information about the referendum' leaflet. The only clue to its provenance is a small 'Vote leave' slogan, together with that red cuby thing that is the symbol of one of the main 'leave' groups.

This piece of 'official information' has a map on the back page labeled 'Countries set to join the EU'. In dark red are Albania and Turkey (and a few others). In ligher red are Syria and Iraq.

So there you have it, the 'official information' about the referendum is 'vote leave' because 'Syria and Iraq' are 'set to join the EU'.

Has anyone had anything more mendacious and disgusting put through their letter box from one of the main Brexit or Remain campains (things written in crayon don't count)?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Yesterday, when campaigning had supposedly been suspended, I received through my door an 'official information about the referendum' leaflet. The only clue to its provenance is a small 'Vote leave' slogan, together with that red cuby thing that is the symbol of one of the main 'leave' groups.

This piece of 'official information' has a map on the back page labeled 'Countries set to join the EU'. In dark red are Albania and Turkey (and a few others). In ligher red are Syria and Iraq.

So there you have it, the 'official information' about the referendum is 'vote leave' because 'Syria and Iraq' are 'set to join the EU'.

Has anyone had anything more mendacious and disgusting put through their letter box from one of the main Brexit or Remain campains (things written in crayon don't count)?

The posting of the leaflets might have be done by a third company. The fact things where suspended yesterday probably didn't even enter the mind of the distributer at the time. That could be one reason?

 

[5ways]

So what reform can you see coming down the line for us if we Remain? Will there be one for free movement of people?

I wouldn't think so but that's what the Labour party has been bandying about

 

[Hampster Gull]

Yesterday, when campaigning had supposedly been suspended, I received through my door an 'official information about the referendum' leaflet. The only clue to its provenance is a small 'Vote leave' slogan, together with that red cuby thing that is the symbol of one of the main 'leave' groups.

This piece of 'official information' has a map on the back page labeled 'Countries set to join the EU'. In dark red are Albania and Turkey (and a few others). In ligher red are Syria and Iraq.

So there you have it, the 'official information' about the referendum is 'vote leave' because 'Syria and Iraq' are 'set to join the EU'.

Has anyone had anything more mendacious and disgusting put through their letter box from one of the main Brexit or Remain campains (things written in crayon don't count)?

The scaremonger is pathetic to be frank.

 

[Soulman]

From Jimmy Buchan, fisherman.

"The last 3 days have been an exciting yet demanding three days.
Huge vote of thanks for inviting me on the journey to London onboard Atlantic challenge.
I never thought I would sail up the Thames once never mind twice and both trips were for so different reasons
A huge thanks to all those who sent messages of support and thanks your comments are really appreciated.
After 40 years as a fisherman I really so disgusted at the torrent of abuse that was peddled at my industry by Bob Geldof and his rent a mob.
I had great respect for this guy but now am sadly disgusted of how my industry is treated and thought of.

Thanks again for the moment "

And
"Hugely disappointed to hear Bob Geldof peddle so much lies and negativity at hard working fishermen who are fighting for there survival - I had a tear in my eye having to listen to him scream at the top of his voice whilst we quietly demonstrated on a press vessel at Westminster.
I salute all in my industry and can only say we tried but if this is what is going on behind the scenes I have my own thoughts.

The scaremonger is pathetic to be frank.

 

[cunning fergus]

I just don't know how I'm going to get through the day with you calling me a fool again? It is really bothering me. I suspect I'll have [MENTION=20840]The Rivet[/MENTION] on me in a minute trying to crawl back up your backside, but that would be difficult given your head is already there.

This country has democratically returned a Tory government for 41 years out of 71 since the end of WWII. This country has elected those governments to represent them. Labour hasn't aligned itself with Tory policy, it has aligned itself with what it believes the people will elect - the people you are saying they are turning their back on, elections and voting tell you what people want, that is what Blair understood only too well. That is British democracy as it stands irrespective of the EU.

A referendum, any kind of referendum is an opportunity to give those in power a bloody nose because it isn't based on constituencies and every vote is worth the same and every vote is counted. As the article says, it gives people a chance to say they are not happy - they're not really bothered about the arguments because they don't feel they can be any worse off than they are already (this is the crux of your article).
Quote
What has any of this got to do with the EU? Not much, but such is the nature of referendums: offer people a ballot paper, and they will focus whatever they feel strongly about on to it.

They know that the Labour Party they want can't get elected under the current democratic system because the constituency marginals show that Labour have to turn to the centre in order to win the swing seats they need to gain power. The working class vote in this regard for Brexit isn't about the EU, it isn't about Labour, it feels like a chance for a revolution, regardless of what that revolution is. I'm currently reading Animal Farm to my daughter, wonderful to go through Orwell's great work again.

It won't work though. When the dust settles, Brexit won't deliver them a left of centre government, it won't make them better off, it won't make our democracy fairer or more equitable, it won't shake the establishment to its knees. The EU isn't the reason our democracy returns right or to central party politics for the past 37 years. Brexit won't end austerity, it won't save our public services, it won't change immigration. The EU is separate from the Tory party, separate from our democracy - that is the real crux of the matter, having a voice. I don't believe that voice will have any greater chance of being heard on an exit. I fear that it could be quietened even further.

This is a risible attempt to diminish the very genuine motives the traditional working class have for voting leave.

The crux of the matter is that British working class have been hung out to dry by both Tory and Labour, and Tony Blair's forced march away from the Labour Party's socialist roots in the mid 90s was sadly the start.

To that extent the Labour Party since the mid 90s has been a fraud against the working class by supporting privatisation, nurturing a reckless culture in banking and financial services, venerating consumerism, particularly the housing market. Tories in all but name.

The EU was front and centre of their policy shift in this regard, they could have introduced transitional controls to prevent the wave of Eastern European migration but they didn't. Only they will know the true reason for doing so, but what is certain is that by embracing freedom of movement for labour they took a long piss on their core support.

The Labour Party has for a long time tried to ignore this discontent, and sell the lie that it was actually in their benefit. The fact that the same people are now rowing back on this position speaks volumes..........they know, only a fool will think otherwise.

Regardless of Brexit the EU is a busted flush, it will collapse through popular will of the people in Hungary, Poland or France or another self inflicted crisis, like Italy's banks or Slovenia's financial stability.

Brexit is the beginning of the end.

 

[melias shoes]

http://news.sky.com/story/1713684/imf-brexit-may-not-mean-a-british-recession
So it won't be so bad after all.

 

[Bold Seagull]

This is a risible attempt to diminish the very genuine motives the traditional working class have for voting leave.

That was the gist of the article you posted!

The crux of the matter is that British working class have been hung out to dry by both Tory and Labour, and Tony Blair's forced march away from the Labour Party's socialist roots in the mid 90s was sadly the start.

To that extent the Labour Party since the mid 90s has been a fraud against the working class by supporting privatisation, nurturing a reckless culture in banking and financial services, venerating consumerism, particularly the housing market. Tories in all but name.

I've not disputed that. I've agreed with it. That is what UK democracy has been delivering. Had Blair not marched Labour from it's socialist roots - he wouldn't have been elected. That is our democracy - like it or loath it.

The EU was front and centre of their policy shift in this regard, they could have introduced transitional controls to prevent the wave of Eastern European migration but they didn't. Only they will know the true reason for doing so, but what is certain is that by embracing freedom of movement for labour they took a long piss on their core support.

Growing economies welcome more people. That is capitalism. EU membership won't change that. Switzerland and Norway both have more EU immigration than we do.

The Labour Party has for a long time tried to ignore this discontent, and sell the lie that it was actually in their benefit. The fact that the same people are now rowing back on this position speaks volumes..........they know, only a fool will think otherwise.

I'm not even sure what this means? The Labour Party have wanted to get elected. This country under the current democratic system will not elect a socialist government. So either Labour sticks to its roots, and we'll have 18 years in a row of Conservative rule as we did, or they make themselves electable. At the moment, they don't know what they're doing.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

So what reform can you see coming down the line for us if we Remain? Will there be one for free movement of people?

Anyone voting Remain hoping for a reform agenda for the EU comfortably fall into the shockingly misinformed/delusional category. Cameron couldn't get any substantive reforms with the supposedly strong bargaining position of keeping us in the club. Why would this suddenly change once we have fully signed up to paying our tens of Billions of pounds membership fee.

Every EU treaty takes more powers to the centre diminishing the roles of the nation states. The Eurozone countries have an inbuilt majority so can take the Ever Closer Union Project forward at a rapid pace sidelining the views of second tier members like the UK.

Most appalling thing appearing through my letter box was a piece of Remain propaganda that cost the UK taxpayer £9.3 million.

 

[Bold Seagull]

From Jimmy Buchan, fisherman.

"The last 3 days have been an exciting yet demanding three days.
Huge vote of thanks for inviting me on the journey to London onboard Atlantic challenge.
I never thought I would sail up the Thames once never mind twice and both trips were for so different reasons
A huge thanks to all those who sent messages of support and thanks your comments are really appreciated.
After 40 years as a fisherman I really so disgusted at the torrent of abuse that was peddled at my industry by Bob Geldof and his rent a mob.
I had great respect for this guy but now am sadly disgusted of how my industry is treated and thought of.

Thanks again for the moment "

And
"Hugely disappointed to hear Bob Geldof peddle so much lies and negativity at hard working fishermen who are fighting for there survival - I had a tear in my eye having to listen to him scream at the top of his voice whilst we quietly demonstrated on a press vessel at Westminster.
I salute all in my industry and can only say we tried but if this is what is going on behind the scenes I have my own thoughts.

The scaremonger is pathetic to be frank.

Had the fisherman not allowed Nigel Farage to lead their protest, no doubt it would have had far more power and no interference from the likes of Bob. They've only got themselves to blame for allowing that charlatan in his brass buttoned blazer lead their flotilla.