[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

See the bit in bold in your post, can you explain why it might make more sense? Or will you just post another long winded evasion?

I already did. Having problems reading? In that debate the foreign secretary had already said why it made no sense to have renegotiations of membership included in a referendum question that had IN and OUT in it already and as well. Mogg replied to his points specifically and said it might make more sense then to get the renegotiation of membership issue out of the way first and then have the second vote ie the final IN OUT vote. Its a simple single conversation in the commons, all be it dragged out with debate.
Surprised you might be desperately trying to read something else into it, whatever that may be.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

All very well, but that doesn’t change the realities of a) to protect the euro and EZ countries full fiscal integration is required and b) desperate times drive desperate measures.

With regard to a) I am not saying that federalisation is just around the corner, the political difficulties at play in France and Germany currently would prevent that. What I am saying though is federalisation is an objective of the EU, and fiscal integration effectively delivers that for the EZ. The EU is a political and economic union, the euro is the manifestation of that reality, anyone suggesting the euro can survive without full fiscal integration of the EZ countries is being dishonest.

This brings us to b) which is what happens in a crisis; and we have already seen what happens, the rules are broken. Currently some EZ countries already violate the fiscal rules of the euro, the ECB is not controlling the EZ countries effectively. This is a problem. In a crisis everything is on the table........take QE, not allowed under Euro rules or a mechanism that can be deployed by the ECB. If you don’t believe me, ask the Germans......and there’s been €2.6 turn of it!

https://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/eurozone-and-finance/german-constitutional-court/

So, you can cut and paste all of the rules you like, those of us with any sense of understanding how the EU works will know when the chips are down the rules are not worth a light.

Interesting. On one level you argue that the EU is rigidly marching towards an inflexible and rigid federal outcome (which you don't like). Then on another level you accuse the EU of being only-too-keen to engage in flexible solutions which appear to contradict these protocols (which you don't like). Given that (as you say) the latter is triggered by crisis, isn't this just a case of an institution adjusting its policies in the search for pragmatic solutions? Back to my earlier point: what's wrong with pragmatism and effective crisis management? And isn't this exactly the sort of approach that we as a country now need in the face of our self-inflicted and desperate situation?
Maybe you need to be a bit harder on the real inflexible ideologues in this grisly drama (the ERG) and more forgiving of an institution that has delivered quite a bit of prosperity and stability to half a continent for half a century, like it or not?

And on another - related point - how are we going to be better able to escape austerity (which I suspect neither of us likes) out of the EU?

 

[CHAPPERS]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...st-as-dissidents-stoke-brexit-fears-xbb6bp9j3

Brexit is, however, seen as an opportunity. Brian Kenna, chairman of Saoradh and a former IRA prisoner, said in a recent interview that the border issue was a reminder that “Britain still rules the six counties of [Northern] Ireland and this is going to lead to renewed conflict”.

 

[Simster]

I am sure that you right when you say that the EU has done some good for the country -I suspect that the benefits have been largely unsung and thus unnoticed. But; the many thousands (but not all, of course) of eastern Europeans here working are in relatively unskilled jobs, and so it is hardly as if foreign governments have paid to train them. The government did not vote to leave the EU - the electorate did. And as to your assertion that EU citizens are thinking of going home, rather more evidence than that would be needed to make the case that you are trying to do. All I know is the ones who live near me and I see on a virtual day to day basis, have no intention of going home.

Well you are both right in my view. [MENTION=258]Pavilionaire[/MENTION] is spot-on with his argument that foreign workers have plugged gaps in the UK labour market at a very opportune time, and you are right in saying that much of the east European labour has actually been unskilled and priced out the local workforce. But here's the rub: we could have prevented that because EU regulations allow existing member states to refuse to accept labour from new EU countries for up to seven years. We should be asking why successive governments (including 5 years under Labour as well as the 10-12 years of Conservatism) waived this right - because had they actually enforced it, I don't think we'd have seen anything like the negative impact on the UK workforce and we wouldn't be in this Brexit mess at all.

 

[cunning fergus]

Interesting. On one level you argue that the EU is rigidly marching towards an inflexible and rigid federal outcome (which you don't like). Then on another level you accuse the EU of being only-too-keen to engage in flexible solutions which appear to contradict these protocols (which you don't like). Given that (as you say) the latter is triggered by crisis, isn't this just a case of an institution adjusting its policies in the search for pragmatic solutions? Back to my earlier point: what's wrong with pragmatism and effective crisis management? And isn't this exactly the sort of approach that we as a country now need in the face of our self-inflicted and desperate situation?
Maybe you need to be a bit harder on the real inflexible ideologues in this grisly drama (the ERG) and more forgiving of an institution that has delivered quite a bit of prosperity and stability to half a continent for half a century, like it or not?

And on another - related point - how are we going to be better able to escape austerity (which I suspect neither of us likes) out of the EU?

This is a tame and deflective response isn’t it.

I’m not moaning about the EU I am explaining it’s operating practices based on historical precedent. I am not saying that QE didn’t help the EZ countries either, it surely did, however the ECB was not intended to operate a QE programme, hence the legal action by the Germans.

That is why whatever you say the about rules as they are currently set out, they are only a crisis away from being torn up. What’s more an economic crisis in the EZ is not a intellectual stretch is it?

EZ banks and Govts are still loaded with debt, QE has flushed €2.6trn through the economy yet the EZ interest rate remains stubbornly at 0%. Throw in Spain, France and Portugal currently acting outside the euro fiscal rules, plus the problems in Italy and Greece then the picture is not healthy.

This situation has nothing to do with the ERG or Brexiteers, but should be defendable by those who advocate locking ourselves to the fortunes of the EU.

We had austerity in the EU, not as bad as Club Med, but that was in the EU.

 

[cunning fergus]

Don't recall ever mentioning legions of fascists, brown-shirted or otherwise, or claiming that they are about to take over. Ultra-nationalists and knuckle-dragging racists, yes - I've pointed out, more than once, that they are among the most enthusiastic of your fellow-travellers on the Brexit bus, even if you seem oddly reluctant to acknowledge them.

De-regulated is not the opposite of regulated. It's a question of degree. You want a lot more, the right-wing pro-Brexit types want a lot less. The moderate view is somewhere in the middle but it does tend to be a characteristic of extremists that they can deal only with black and white. When it comes to shades of grey, they often mistake it for incoherence and describing Corbyn's Labour Party as capitalist pigs rather proves the point.

What’s the difference between legions of brown shirted fascists and ultra nationalist knuckle dragging racists?

What is the opposite of regulated if it’s not de-regulated?

What is the middle? Is it the views of multi millionaire capitalist pro EU war criminal Tony Blair, or is multi millionaire capitalist pro EU Etonian toff David Cameron?

Your post creates some intriguing questions.........

 

[CHAPPERS]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-tax-cut-to-cost-billions-more-than-thought
https://www.theguardian.com/society...regions-worst-hit-by-uk-austerity-study-finds

Let's hope that Brexit dividend is massive as the UK government is making autonomous decisions that are pushing a lot of areas of this country to the brink. Or we could just blame tax paying EU immigrants that contribtute more to the public purse than those born here and tell them they aren't welcome couldn't we.

 

[cunning fergus]

All the benefits of the EU plus. It retains considerable powers at state level, but also prevents any state from being too extreme, corrupt or oppressive, and the State Governments can also be a balance to prevent the Federal Government from becoming any of these. A Federal EU would have a single military, and it makes sense that it would be a more useful and powerful military for less expense than 28 separate ones. A powerful military and a powerful economy gives more influence in the world.
The structure and which powers should be held locally and which centrally is crucial to creating the most benefits and fewest problems.

At last, some credible views on the future, it’s a shame other remainers are not as open as you about your vision for the UK’s future.

One point to start with, in your view the EU would have the power to prevent a country becoming extreme, corrupt or oppressive?

How are these powers measured? Would it (say) overturn the election of Marine Le Pen?

Hungary and Poland are currently going through a legal process with the EU concerning national policies that have been passed by a democratically elected Govt. Do you agree with this?

As for corruption, Romania is off the scale on corruption in their Govt (check out reports now they have periodic Presidential responsibility) the CAP is deeply corrupt, Millions are spent moving from Brussels to Strasbourg, EU whistleblowers are routinely ignored, trade deals (like TTIP) are negotiated behind closed doors etc. Do you really think the EU a paragon of transparency regarding corruption?

 

[cunning fergus]

So how do you envisage that the UK will move towards the left, or presumably 'hard left' post Brexit?

It seems to me that the hard right are not only trying to shape Brexit(and to an extent succeeding), but are also well poised to capitalise on and exploit the ensuing uncertainty.

What is the hard left going to do?

In brief I trust the socialist intuition of the British public, eg a majority don’t want that to be privatised.

I think they would support nationalisation of state industries and a break on the worst excesses of capitalism, to be found in the city and amongst landlords.

As I have said before, every economic crisis caused by irresponsible capitalism which is encouraged by U.K. politicians and institutions like the EU then it’s another step towards a fairer socialist future.

I’m positive on that basis.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

See, there you go. Even in your hypothetical scenario you have the electorate becoming angry at their democratic vote being ignored. And rightly so.
You could apply your hypothetical scenario to any referendum vote on any subject at any time, hindsight or not and you still would arrive every time, at the electorate would be incandescent if their democratic vote was ignored.
The question is what do your do with this knowledge, knowing that people dont like their vote ignored. Do you not even consider ignoring a democratic vote anyway or believe instead it should be respected, knowing full well democracy is the bedrock of society and the public would be furious if it was stolen from them. Or do you act like an undemocratic loon, and as you say, simply say bugger that, lets ignore that vote, they will be grateful in the long run anyway that their democratic vote is ignored

Oh well, given that you imply it would have been better to have had Britain overrun by Nazi Germany than to disregard the result (a result driven by tabloid sentiment and a bunch of assorted fascist-influenced groups including the Daily Mail) of a non-binding referendum I suppose I can only say that we will never agree.

 

[Simster]

In brief I trust the socialist intuition of the British public, eg a majority don’t want that to be privatised.

I think they would support nationalisation of state industries and a break on the worst excesses of capitalism, to be found in the city and amongst landlords.

As I have said before, every economic crisis caused by irresponsible capitalism which is encouraged by U.K. politicians and institutions like the EU then it’s another step towards a fairer socialist future.

I’m positive on that basis.

I think you're incredibly naive. The following posters are the leavers with more posts than you on this thread:
[MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=12935]GT49er[/MENTION] [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION] [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] (I think?) [MENTION=578]portslade seagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=22389]bashlsdir[/MENTION] [MENTION=5101]BigGully[/MENTION] [MENTION=20840]The Rivet[/MENTION] [MENTION=17469]melias shoes[/MENTION] [MENTION=240]larus[/MENTION]

Sorry to name-check you all chaps, but is there a single one of you that voted leave as a means to a socialist Britain? [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] seems to think that voting leave will be a major step to making this happen. Personally, I'm not convinced.

 

[ManOfSussex]

I think you're incredibly naive. The following posters are the leavers with more posts than you on this thread:
[MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=12935]GT49er[/MENTION] [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION] [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] (I think?) [MENTION=578]portslade seagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=22389]bashlsdir[/MENTION] [MENTION=5101]BigGully[/MENTION] [MENTION=20840]The Rivet[/MENTION] [MENTION=17469]melias shoes[/MENTION] [MENTION=240]larus[/MENTION]

Sorry to name-check you all chaps, but is there a single one of you that voted leave as a means to a socialist Britain? [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] seems to think that voting leave will be a major step to making this happen. Personally, I'm not convinced.

It might just be me, but I've got the distinct impression that Footy Genius for one, with all all his posts containing links from The Daily Telegraph and Guido Fawkes blog site about Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and Diane Abbott and what they're up to and what they're saying and who they're meeting, both now and in the 1980's, did not vote vote leave for a socialist future. I've always found it a little odd that he and most of those other posters you name-check are sanguine about a no deal Brexit but think, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and Diane Abbott would be ruinous for the country.

That said though, if Brexit was to inadvertently end up making Corbyn and McDonnell neighbours on Downing Street, I would actually **** myself laughing.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I think you're incredibly naive. The following posters are the leavers with more posts than you on this thread:
[MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=12935]GT49er[/MENTION] [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION] [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] (I think?) [MENTION=578]portslade seagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=22389]bashlsdir[/MENTION] [MENTION=5101]BigGully[/MENTION] [MENTION=20840]The Rivet[/MENTION] [MENTION=17469]melias shoes[/MENTION] [MENTION=240]larus[/MENTION]

Sorry to name-check you all chaps, but is there a single one of you that voted leave as a means to a socialist Britain? [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] seems to think that voting leave will be a major step to making this happen. Personally, I'm not convinced.

I'll go first if you like. No I didn't vote leave to help bring about a socialist Britain ( although I do believe some industries should be brought back into public ownership - the railways being the prime example ). That said I do support [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] in his claims that the EU is a club for capitalism more than socialism and is rife with corruption.

 

[Simster]

I'll go first if you like. No I didn't vote leave to help bring about a socialist Britain ( although I do believe some industries should be brought back into public ownership - the railways being the prime example ). That said I do support [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] in his claims that the EU is a club for capitalism more than socialism and is rife with corruption.

Just about what I expected, and a fair amount that I agree with myself. I'd say most people want the railways back in public ownership regardless of political or even Brexit persuasion, even accounting for the shocking cost of doing so. As for the EU, well my opinion is that is predominantly a vehicle for free trade, which in turn promotes a peaceful continent. It also has the benefits of a social charter which provides a basic level of workers rights - something that we didn't implement until Labour got in, but that nobody is now arguing we should repeal.

Personally, I am convinced that for all it's bad points (undoubted levels of corruption, lack of accountability in some areas), as a nation we are only going to realise how much we've missed it when we've lost it, and I still find it shocking that anybody would think massive shortages, economic chaos, job losses and potentially having our army on the streets is going to be a price worth paying. But most of all, I'm sick of it all now. I just want it done so that we can get the campaign underway to reintegrate with our neighbours (on worse terms than we have now, and if they'll ever have us).

 

[Mellotron]

I just want it done so that we can get the campaign underway to reintegrate with our neighbours (on worse terms than we have now, and if they'll ever have us).

This is the silliest thing about all of it. If you look at the politics of various demographics, it's near inevitable that we'll be rejoining the EU in the next 10-15 years, just on shitter terms than we left it. Complete waste of time, money and progress.

 

[A1X]

I think when pushed most people would generally find a middle ground that some of the more basic fundamentals (i.e. basic transport and utilities such as road, rail, water) are probably the ones which most would go with being state run, while anything else more consumer based or elements which exist on top of the bare functions of society (e.g. broadband, banking, shopping) should be in the private sector. Nobody wants to pay the Government for their bread in the same way nobody wants to have Tesco maintaining the motorway network.

Unfortunately, however, in the upper echelons of British politics the idea of compromise and common sense have largely disappeared in recent years to be replaced with two tribes barking at each other while most of us look on in despair.

 

[A1X]

This is the silliest thing about all of it. If you look at the politics of various demographics, it's near inevitable that we'll be rejoining the EU in the next 10-15 years, just on shitter terms than we left it. Complete waste of time, money and progress.

And the worse it turns out in the short term, the shorter that time-frame is likely to be.

 

[Mellotron]

And the worse it turns out in the short term, the shorter that time-frame is likely to be.

I think 10-15 years is conservative. As you say, the worse it looks, the quicker than turnaround will be.

 

[Stat Brother]

This is the silliest thing about all of it. If you look at the politics of various demographics, it's near inevitable that we'll be rejoining the EU in the next 10-15 years, just on shitter terms than we left it. Complete waste of time, money and progress.

Not for everybody though.

Plenty of people have, will & will continue to make out like bandits thanks to Brexit.

Obviously nobody on here who have be championing leaving from day one, they aren't in the right club.
But hey millions of people also thought they could make America Great Again so there's no accounting for stupidity.

 

[Two Professors]

I think you're incredibly naive. The following posters are the leavers with more posts than you on this thread:
[MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] [MENTION=21401]pastafarian[/MENTION] [MENTION=33253]JC Footy Genius[/MENTION] [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] [MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=12935]GT49er[/MENTION] [MENTION=26105]Soulman[/MENTION] [MENTION=599]beorhthelm[/MENTION] (I think?) [MENTION=578]portslade seagull[/MENTION] [MENTION=22389]bashlsdir[/MENTION] [MENTION=5101]BigGully[/MENTION] [MENTION=20840]The Rivet[/MENTION] [MENTION=17469]melias shoes[/MENTION] [MENTION=240]larus[/MENTION]

Sorry to name-check you all chaps, but is there a single one of you that voted leave as a means to a socialist Britain? [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] seems to think that voting leave will be a major step to making this happen. Personally, I'm not convinced.

I identify myself as a social democrat,and would love Brexit to lead Great Britain into a golden future of social democracy.Unfortunately,the only choices we have are crypto fascists/marxists,or spoilt ballot.Perhaps when Cable retires there might be some hope of some decent competiton for the establishment from a left of centre party.