[Politics] Brexit

[btnbelle]

As mentioned in another thread, I think a 2nd referendum is the way to go.
When people voted the first time around, people didn't know exactly what Brexit will entail.
Brexit day is little over 2 months away and the government is in a shambles and with a clearer picture of what Brexit means, the people should be allowed to decide whether it is what they still want.

A second referendum will not happen.

There would be a big campaign for leave voters to abstain from voting, making it invalid.

Democracy has already provided the government with a decision! LEAVE

 

[ManOfSussex]

A scathing piece by Daniel Finkelstein in today's Times of London. Here's a snippet:

Brexiteers like the feeling that they have been betrayed by the political establishment. Well, I’m sorry, but you have not been betrayed. Brexit meant Brexit. Leave meant Leave. A deal has been negotiated that would allow us to leave in two months’ time and it’s you, the Brexiteers, who defeated it. Brexit is there. It’s on the table. It’s ready for you to carry away. Don’t you dare accuse me of bad faith if you fail to pick it up.

It is we who have been betrayed. Those who faithfully and diligently tried to make Brexit happen smoothly and on time, even though we had our doubts. We’ve been left high and dry.

The Brexiteer rebels are now saying something they never said in the referendum. That Brexit could mean leaving without any trade deal, breaking the Good Friday agreement, failing to settle financially with our continental allies and departing without a transition arrangement. They claim only this is truly Brexit. And only this is what “17.4 million people” voted for.

Nonsense. Complete nonsense. But all right, if they really believe that the majority of voters support this burn-it-all-down Brexit, let’s put it to the test. Let’s have another referendum and ask the electorate. If they are so confident that this is the will of the people, surely the Brexiteers won’t mind.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/blame-the-brexiteers-for-last-night-s-farce-2hk5l262f

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

You might as well just have asked if people want to leave or not, because that's how they will vote in this poll.

Not true.

I don't want to leave. I don't think we should leave.

I think we WILL leave so that's what I voted.

It's a really simple question.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Then step aside and let someone else, better qualified, better able, better equipped do it.

This problem I personally have with this issue in particular and politics in general is the arrogance of our politicians.

Whatever the rights or wrongs of leaving the EU, the decision was made (by the people because the politicians didn't have the guts) and the role of the politicians is to negotiate the best settlement. If they lack the negotiating skills then they should admit it and step aside, if they lack the understanding of what people want then they should consult with their constituents, if they lack the ability to get behind the deal they have struck then they f**ked up the first two parts. Whichever way they personally believe we should have voted is absolutely and completely immaterial. They were voted to represent, if they cannot, with all conscience, represent the people's wishes because of their own view point then they should have stepped aside.


Ultimately, the referendum was a wake up call to politicians that they were not representing the people properly. They have, IMHO, f**ked up the opportunity to prove they can represent us. A General Election should be called immediately but with one vital caveat... If you have EVER held a seat in parliament you cannot stand at this election. You weren't good enough. Time to let someone else have a go.

That rules out my Tory MP then, who totally ignored the 52% Remain vote in her constituency. It works both ways.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

A second referendum will not happen.

There would be a big campaign for leave voters to abstain from voting, making it invalid.

Democracy has already provided the government with a decision! LEAVE

Democracy advised the government. The Referendum Act 2015 said the referendum was advisory, no matter what the pamphlets or politicians said.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

As mentioned in another thread, I think a 2nd referendum is the way to go.
When people voted the first time around, people didn't know exactly what Brexit will entail.
Brexit day is little over 2 months away and the government is in a shambles and with a clearer picture of what Brexit means, the people should be allowed to decide whether it is what they still want.

As Mrs T just reminded me, someone wrote a beautiful analogy on sticking with the results of the first referendum even if it means a hard Brexit, about someone responding to a car ad, and finding the car as advertised was actually nothing like the nonfunctioning jalopy on the seller's driveway, and then deciding '**** it, I'm going to buy it anyway, and for the asking price'.

As for what I think will happen, I have said for a long time that Brexit won't happen because it cannot, no matter how much people may want it, any more than my personal resurrection will happen, no matter how much I might want it, and the likelihood of my resurrection would not change at all if I and my friends and family were allowed a referendum on the matter.

 

[BBassic]

Not true.

I don't want to leave. I don't think we should leave.

I think we WILL leave so that's what I voted.

It's a really simple question.

This.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Theresa May is refusing to talk to the other leaders to try to find a way forward. She has suffered the biggest defeat in Parliamentary history but still digging in.

[tweet]1085455233503952896[/tweet]

 

[Westdene Seagull]

A scathing piece by Daniel Finkelstein in today's Times of London. Here's a snippet:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/blame-the-brexiteers-for-last-night-s-farce-2hk5l262f

Scathing it indeed is but he somewhat misses the maths from last nights vote. By conservative ( little c not big C ) estimates there are about 50 hard brexiteers in the house. Let's be generous and call it 60. Even if every one of those 60 voted for May's deal last night it would still have been defeated.

 

[Baldseagull]

This talk of extending the deadline is total nonsense. I work in business negotiation and every deal you do there comes to a point where party or the other wants to extend the period of negotiation. Until one party says no there is no focus. Only at that point do you really know what you can get out of the other side. We need to take this to wire, last week, last night before the 29th March if necessary. Extending it won't help, you will always work up to the buffer and then a deal will happen. In the meantime we work our butts off to prepare for no deal and if that happens for a few months so what, if we show we are coping with no deal we will have strengthened our position incredibly and then the EU will be much more on the back foot. Like others I am in no way scared by a no deal because it will inevitably lead to a better deal being offered eventually. We shouldn't worry about any short pain because it will be to achieve long term gain.

Some really fat "if's" in there. In your job, have you ever had a deadline where if you did not get everything right, people might die? I have worked in construction, and generally, if the roof isn't on, people get wet when it rains.

 

[Greavsey]

A second referendum will not happen.

There would be a big campaign for leave voters to abstain from voting, making it invalid.

Democracy has already provided the government with a decision! LEAVE

Democracy didn't provide us with a decision. Proven manipulation, lies and cheating of the electoral process tipped the balance in favour of leave. But politicians continue to trot out this line about respecting the decision of the people. It's BS that a second referendum would be an affront to democracy.

Only way out of this is a second referendum, with This Deal or Remain - and a massive majority one way or another. No Deal is just going to bankrupt the country so should be taken off the table. Danger of no large majority one way or another is obviously the rumblings on will continue if Remain wins..

There isn't a deal that will satisfy a majority of Leavers, because they all had their own view of what Leaving actually meant. And Remainers will surely only be truly satisfied if we do just that.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Try to reach a cross-party consensus? What a good idea - and only two and a half years too late.

Apart from the fact that May is refusing to do that.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Scathing it indeed is but he somewhat misses the maths from last nights vote. By conservative ( little c not big C ) estimates there are about 50 hard brexiteers in the house. Let's be generous and call it 60. Even if every one of those 60 voted for May's deal last night it would still have been defeated.

Take it up with him, I'm sure you know best.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Democracy advised the government. The Referendum Act 2015 said the referendum was advisory, no matter what the pamphlets or politicians said.

Excellent point, and one that even I forget from time to time. I guess it is easy to forget about facts when you have the likes of Fazza and Bojo and others spouting lies at nose-bleed volume 24/7 (as they did before the vote and in the months following).

Just been having a discussion with Mrs T about Mrs May and we are convinced she's conflated duty and purpose with laws and indeed reality. First we had Brexitters who advised that it would be easy - EU needs us so much we just turn up and they will give us what we want. The next problem was that it took ages for her to work out what it actually was we actually wanted. And then this turned out to be a load of unattainable bollocks. Guess what, The EU were in no hurry to roll over and have its tummy tickled. But we were promised they would.....

None of this was ever necessary and it could have been ended swiftly after a feasibility exercise ('Oy, EU, will you agree to this and this?'. 'No, mate'. 'We'll hard Brexit then'. 'We don't care, mate'. 'OK, we'll stay then' - simples). Instead Mrs May seems to have been mesmorised by the conviction of those with a narcissistic personality disorder who imagine that once they have decided something it becomes fact and will happen. Politics should be about leadership not followership.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Heaven forbid that any leavers actually considered the pros and cons of EU membership and decided that it was an ineffective, corrupt organisation which was interested in impoverishing it's poorer members in an ideological race to become a country.

The EU has been fantastic for the poor hasn't it? Ask the Italians, Greeks, Spanish etc. But they don't matter, they aren't northern Europeans and have darker skin don't they?

I have asked the Greeks as I posted yesterday. They were in deep deep trouble of their own making. They wanted to join the euro but had to start getting their economy in order. The EU told them the way to get their economy back on track which was very harsh but the only way.
The Greeks then had a general election in 2012, and elected a pro EU government accepting the rules.

It was very similar to the 70s when Britain had rampant inflation and were printing money to try to keep up. We went cap in hand to the IMF, the only organisation who were willing to lend us money at the time. We had to stick to their rules.
Who elects the International Monetary Fund?

The Italians and Spanish are also in the eurozone so have to get their economy in order too.
Britain vetoed the euro so the EU cannot have a say in our economy.

 

[CHAPPERS]

if we show we are coping with no deal .

And if we don't?

Go on. What then.

 

[Baldseagull]

Scathing it indeed is but he somewhat misses the maths from last nights vote. By conservative ( little c not big C ) estimates there are about 50 hard brexiteers in the house. Let's be generous and call it 60. Even if every one of those 60 voted for May's deal last night it would still have been defeated.

The DUP were voting against it, and the opposition was voting against it, because of this, Tories knew it wasn't going to pass, it was just a free shot at looking principled over Brexit, they know she won't be losing a vote of confidence today, the result is much the same as if she had lost by 10. If the DUP had been on board, it would have put more pressure on the rest to follow the whip and she may well still have lost, but not by much.

 

[Blue3]

A Brexit Coalition with one representative from each of the political parties currently represented in Parliment is now required to discuss and discuss with the EU to find a way forward to ensure its decision is representative of all the transferral voting system or similar needs to be used.

The government needs to urgently seek to extend Article 50 or failing that to rescind it

Once the Brexit coalition has a plan they then need to present this to Parliment to accept amend and then take forward to the EU

 

[Westdene Seagull]

That 'utter plethora of legislation' isn't required before we fallout by default ..... it's desirable. Not having it doesn't prevent us leaving

It's desirable? It's actually all legally required, on top of everything else to function, if we want to fall out and off the cliff edge you so desire by default.

So you can't provide the evidence that these extra instruments have to be in place in order to leave then ?

From the BBC this morning ( a list of possibilities moving forwards ) :

"1. No deal
If nothing else happens, the default position would be a no-deal Brexit.

The law is already in place which means the UK would leave the EU on 29 March 2019.

And, in any case, EU rules mean the UK would leave then.

The government would probably want to pass some legislation to prepare for no-deal but that's not strictly essential."

 

[Blackadder]

Voted leave but can't see us leaving. TM and main opposition determined to keep us in.

I voted stay but I think we will leave. May and Corbyn will ensure that.

I will respect this as that's the way the vote went. However I think it will be a softer Brexit than the what was offered yesterday.