[Politics] Brexit

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

PS………...and equally an MP who constituents voted remain is not duty-bound to follow that line.

 

[fanseagull]

This is neither a moral imperative nor a constitutional one. Edmund Burke (conservative political philosopher) established that MPs are not delegates but have a higher duty to consider the overall public interest beyond that of their constituents. When an MP uses the 'my constituents voted for X so I am supporting it' line they are usually being disingenuous.

I have pointed that out to melia's shoes; I don't think he quite understands how our parliamentary democracy is set up..... either that or just shows the typical small screen focus that we get a lot of from brexit supporters on hear.

 

[fanseagull]

PS………...and equally an MP who constituents voted remain is not duty-bound to follow that line.

e.g. the DUP MPs

 

[cunning fergus]

If you bother to do a bit of research on this group they appear to the usual far right nut jobs. They've only just become interested in Brexit and have very oddly adopted the uniform of fuel price protestors in France.

Original they are not.

Obviously not very bright calling that MP of all MPs a "nazi" and going after Owen Jones who can't be described as a strong supporter of remaining in Europe at all.

He's a supporter of Corbyn who hate the EU as much as Rees Mogg.


I agree, the problem is that abuse of politicians is now an orthodoxy across the political spectrum.....whether that is Soubry being called a Nazi, Farage being hit over the head by placard weirding protestor, Boris Johnson being chased down his street by anti Brexit protestors or Angela Eagle being threatened with physical assault in her constituency office.

The genie is out the bottle, it always has been.........who can forget Prescott’s egging!

As far as Owen Jones is concerned.......

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/to...jeremy-corbyn-s-fan-labour-guardian-1-5644663

 

[CHAPPERS]

Hate crimes outside parliament towards Anna Soubry

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601

The ugly face of the new English nationalism...

No no, totally manufactured.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

He needs to return to his career as a GP, a complete waste of space....

Not sure some folk would be totally comfortable to be his patients: "Your operation will be the easiest and most straightforward in history...….." Ooops.

 

[Simster]

Excellent,as long as they stay there.

Let's hope it isn't YOUR daughter who is one of the victims when a serial rapist scarpers to freedom in Portugal, eh? You absolute f**king tosser.

 

[fanseagull]

Let's hope it isn't YOUR daughter who is one of the victims when a serial rapist scarpers to freedom in Portugal, eh? You absolute f**king tosser.

Poor old 2p.... When he starts to write on here he doesn't know what he will say, as he writes he does not know what he is saying and when he is finished he doesn't know what he has said......

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Why? How is that relevent to current man made climate change? Climate change is that which is non-natural: caused by humans. It is happening, we know it is. You can not deny it.

Good grief, it's like having a six year old simpleton as a pet !

So just for you, in simple bite size pieces on the off chance you might just finally understand :

1. [MENTION=33116]Garry Nelson's teacher[/MENTION] suggested there was a correlation ( sorry if that word is too long for you ) between Brexiteers and climate change deniers

2. I've seen nobody on this thread letalone a Brexiteer deny there is climate change.

3. The two Brexiteers ( myself and [MENTION=240]larus[/MENTION] ) that responded to the original post both stated there is climate change - i.e. we don't deny it is happening

4. Equally we both pointed out that climate change happens naturally and man has accelerated the process. There is a tonne of evidence to support this .....just google it.

5. There WAS climate change before man came along. You appear to deny this so I asked you to explain how the ice age happened if there isn't naturally occuring climate change - i.e. according to you it's ALL man made.

6. As per usual you shot off at all different tangents most of which were ridiculous at best and mainly stupid. Yet you still haven't answered the question ..... as per normal because you never do.

 

[Baldseagull]

Fact de jour...

Dover Port

1993 - 2750 lorry movements per day 2000 customs officers

2018 - 12500 lorry movements per day 200 customs officers

How long does it take to train a customs officer?

Come on people, we just need to believe more.....

5 years before the title of "Assistant" gets dropped and you are considered experienced enough to be a full customs officer. But we won't need them, JRM is certain magic border technology will be available very soon. He is so confident that this technology is just around the corner that he is very relaxed about the Irish Backstop ever being needed and if it were, that the technology would soon replace it, so really no need to worry about that being in place indefinitely. We just need to have faith.

 

[melias shoes]

PS………...and equally an MP who constituents voted remain is not duty-bound to follow that line.

Morally they should be.

 

[fanseagull]

Morally they should be.

Whose morals? Your morals? Which of us has the right to seize the ethical high ground and undermine the firm, sincerely held beliefs of our elected MPs..... They are humans with convictions and are elected to serve our interests, not always simply to implement our will; do you not understand that distinction? Before answering, please reflect for a moment.....

 

[Baldseagull]

Morally they should be.

Should a soldier always follow orders, however wrong they know the action to be?

 

[pb21]

Morally they should be.

Why?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This is neither a moral imperative nor a constitutional one. Edmund Burke (conservative political philosopher) established that MPs are not delegates but have a higher duty to consider the overall public interest beyond that of their constituents. When an MP uses the 'my constituents voted for X so I am supporting it' line they are usually being disingenuous.

I don't necessarily disagree with Mr Burke. When it comes to general government policies yes, MPs have been elected to look after our interests and I'm happy to leave them to it. I doubt many of us would want to have had our opinion asked over many thngs the house votes on. The difference here is that the electorate WERE consulted on a very specific policy and that consultation was agreed by MPs - i.e. MPs thought it such an important policy that the electorate should decide. Yes, it was a non-binding referendum and there are also good arguments as to why referendums should never be used but the fact of the matter is that the UK were asked, the government of the day said they would enact the will of the people and as a whole, the vote wasn't measured in constituencys, the UK told the government we wanted to leave the EU. I'd suggest therefore it's the duty of every MP ensure we leave regardless if they think it's a bad idea or not. Now what type of leave that is ? Well that's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Whose morals? Your morals? Which of us has the right to seize the ethical high ground and challenge the conscience of our elected MPs..... They are humans with convictions and are elected to serve our interests, not always simply to implement our will; do you not understand that distinction? Before answering, please reflect for a moment.....

Of course there are many ethical frameworks which could be adduced. I think Melia leans towards a deontological (duty-based) one - but this is tricky to argue (duty to electorate? party? country? the as yet unborn?) On utilitarian grounds it could be in the interests of a given constituency to leave the EU (eg for the sake of argument, a fishing one) but against the greater good. There would be an ethical dilemma for the MP in such a case. But the utilitarian would advise he or she supported remain if this delivered a greater happiness to the greater number - which is of course arguable in itself. I'm pleased to see how the level of debate has been elevated by Melia but fear that is doesn't really resolve much.

 

[Baldseagull]

I don't necessarily disagree with Mr Burke. When it comes to general government policies yes, MPs have been elected to look after our interests and I'm happy to leave them to it. I doubt many of us would want to have had our opinion asked over many thngs the house votes on. The difference here is that the electorate WERE consulted on a very specific policy and that consultation was agreed by MPs - i.e. MPs thought it such an important policy that the electorate should decide. Yes, it was a non-binding referendum and there are also good arguments as to why referendums should never be used but the fact of the matter is that the UK were asked, the government of the day said they would enact the will of the people and as a whole, the vote wasn't measured in constituencys, the UK told the government we wanted to leave the EU. I'd suggest therefore it's the duty of every MP ensure we leave regardless if they think it's a bad idea or not. Now what type of leave that is ? Well that's a whole different kettle of fish.

None are suggesting we just remain though are they? Most of Labour are saying they could get a different deal, half the tories are saying No Deal, half are saying Mays deal, the rests are saying lets ask the public which, if any, we want.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

I don't necessarily disagree with Mr Burke. When it comes to general government policies yes, MPs have been elected to look after our interests and I'm happy to leave them to it. I doubt many of us would want to have had our opinion asked over many thngs the house votes on. The difference here is that the electorate WERE consulted on a very specific policy and that consultation was agreed by MPs - i.e. MPs thought it such an important policy that the electorate should decide. Yes, it was a non-binding referendum and there are also good arguments as to why referendums should never be used but the fact of the matter is that the UK were asked, the government of the day said they would enact the will of the people and as a whole, the vote wasn't measured in constituencys, the UK told the government we wanted to leave the EU. I'd suggest therefore it's the duty of every MP ensure we leave regardless if they think it's a bad idea or not. Now what type of leave that is ? Well that's a whole different kettle of fish.

You are right (I think) in identifying this as a non-constituency issue (and thereby contradicting Melia) and thus I think this is a stronger argument than his. One key issue on this scenario is the 'changing circumstances' one i.e. have the consequences of the leave vote changed to such an extent that the original moral contract with the electorate is now effectively void. Notwithstanding this, a utilitarian view would still steer the morally conflicted MP to vote remain: the consequences of Leave (assuming they are as disastrous as could be reasonably expected) 'trump' the original moral contract (and it was a rather loose one).

PS not trying to set myself as an expert; these are complex matters. But it's better than simply trading insults and thus makes a nice change!

 

[nicko31]

5 years before the title of "Assistant" gets dropped and you are considered experienced enough to be a full customs officer. But we won't need them, JRM is certain magic border technology will be available very soon. He is so confident that this technology is just around the corner that he is very relaxed about the Irish Backstop ever being needed and if it were, that the technology would soon replace it, so really no need to worry about that being in place indefinitely. We just need to have faith.

JRM's blind faith is backed by the bible, magic and a few million deluded followers...

 

[Simster]

Morally they should be.

I don't agree, mate. If you campaign on a ticket and THEN change your policy after being elected, then I fully agree 100%. However, if you've always believed something that goes against the beliefs of your electorate but they elect you anyway, I think you're entitled to campaign for what you always stood for.

Now if you want to talk about morals and MPs who say one thing and then do another, look no further than duplicitous fat chancer, Boris Johnson who stood for election in a West London constituency because it was a safe Tory seat, shouted loudly about how unfair Heathrow runway 5 was to his constituents, but then ran off to Brussels for no real reason on the day the Heathrow vote went through the Commons. Politicians don't come more duplicitous, selfish and immoral than him.