[Politics] Brexit

[Machiavelli]

Why oh why won't those pesky peasants simply do as their told and listen to their betters? Working class people are so frightful and common.

You, the accountant, are now a peasant and a proletarian.

 

[jimhigham]

Machiavelli is much misunderstood, whether in the sixteenth or twenty-first century.
And to repeat an earlier point, this is a decision for the UK electorate. Once put like that, it indicates that the much-fabled 'loss of sovereignty' that the Leave camp bang on about is a load of old tosh. But, then again, the Remain camp are too feeble to formulate such an argument (am I beginning to sound more like the Machiavelli you know?). What the EU want doesn't come into it. If you go into this vote thinking that another attempt is just around the corner, you're not willing to accept the enormity of the decision in front of us.

Now we are edging close to some sort of agreement. For whatever reason, you seem to have read my initial post and leapt to some conclusion as to which way my vote was going or that I was in some way abdicating responsibility for it. Read it back and you'll see that I never actually argued that this wasn't solely a matter for the UK electorate. I am well aware of the enormity of the choice we face on the 23rd and I will definitely be voting. I'll also be voting "remain". I'm not sure if that's what you imagined of me or not. I'm guessing not.

The point is that after we vote we might find that events take on a life on their own. The European Council could easily find itself assailed with similar threats from elsewhere or might simply conclude that the sums do not add up without the UK's contribution. I still believe that this might lead to further renegotiations. I am not factoring this possibility in when considering my vote. I'm simply musing on future possibilities. You don't agree but I don't see any need to argue over it. We're just bouncing ideas around here.

Apologies if I have misunderstood Machiavelli (16th or 21st century variant).

 

[Buzzer]

Is this your take on Murdoch? He seems to be the only one telling the peasants what to do.

Nope, it's my take on all the people in this thread that are virtue signalling.

 

[Nixonator]

All you dick heads who are voting based on politicians you dislike, or because of the party currently in power or because of a ****ing newspaper's allegiance... it's ****ing exasperating.

News flash, this referendum transcends all of that.

If you are privy to the facts and still want to remain then fair enough, I disagree with you but at least it's rational (or you think it's rational somehow).

 

[Machiavelli]

Now we are edging close to some sort of agreement. For whatever reason, you seem to have read my initial post and leapt to some conclusion as to which way my vote was going or that I was in some way abdicating responsibility for it. Read it back and you'll see that I never actually argued that this wasn't solely a matter for the UK electorate. I am well aware of the enormity of the choice we face on the 23rd and I will definitely be voting. I'll also be voting "remain". I'm not sure if that's what you imagined of me or not. I'm guessing not.

The point is that after we vote we might find that events take on a life on their own. The European Council could easily find itself assailed with similar threats from elsewhere or might simply conclude that the sums do not add up without the UK's contribution. I still believe that this might lead to further renegotiations. I am not factoring this possibility in when considering my vote. I'm simply musing on future possibilities. You don't agree but I don't see any need to argue over it. We're just bouncing ideas around here.

Apologies if I have misunderstood Machiavelli (16th or 21st century variant).

It's the bit about after the referendum where we differ. On other bits, we agree and, no, I wasn't attempting to second-guess your position on the referendum.

 

[Buzzer]

You, the accountant, are now a peasant and a proletarian.

To paraphrase Sadiq Khan, "working class boy, middle class man."

Fortunately it means that I don't have that middle-class liberal guilt about hating what the working-class in the UK stands for.

 

[Boy Blue]

Cameron doesn't do himself any favours when he blantly lies to the public about immigration.

 

[hans kraay fan club]

Nope, it's my take on all the people in this thread that are virtue signalling.

I'm unfamiliar with the phrase.

The whole thing is massively depressing - so many people on BOTH sides, making their decisions based on ignorance, prejudice and misinformation.

 

[Two Professors]

To the easily manipulated idoits that read the Sun quite a bit !

I have been reading the Sun since the 70's,and enjoyed it most of the time.I can also spell idiot.I retired at 59,mortgage and debts all paid off,comfortably off etc.,which is,I suspect,a great deal better off than you.I presume half the people slagging off the Sun/Murdoch are unemployed/unemployable to have so much free time on an internet chat site!As to the poster who declared he spends 9 months of the year in EU countries,where does he spend the other 3,la-la land?

 

[Two Professors]

Is this your take on Murdoch? He seems to be the only one telling the peasants what to do.

Hopefully,his take on Cameron and the rest of the Remain campaign buffoons!

 

[Two Professors]

Anthony Hilton column in the Evening Standard:

'I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.'

Wow,I haven't seen that quote above 50 times today-how original.You're more like Comical Ali

 

[heathgate]

How will be be able to control the overall numbers currently trooping in legally from the EU? We'll still be in The EEA, we're not voting to leave that. Why will we have control on EU immigrants when Norway, Switzerland or Iceland doesn't? Because Nigel Farage says we will or do you have some definitive knowledge to the outcome of negotiations that haven't taken place?

Because that's what we are voting for.... control.... EEA is not what we are signing up for...

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[drew]

Cameron doesn't do himself any favours when he blantly lies to the public about immigration.

Can you provide a link to the actual alleged quote rather than a leave poster that anyone could produce?

 

[ROSM]

This was always going to be the case. The EU membership is a.complex item and very few people indeed will understand all the ins and outs. So people will vote for a number of different reasons including gut feeling, personal dislikes (politicians, foreigners etc) and the personal experiences /small elements they do know

 

[Eeyore]

Wow,I haven't seen that quote above 50 times today-how original.You're more like Comical Ali

You'll probably be seeing a lot more of it.

 

[Jim in the West]

I'm unfamiliar with the phrase.

The whole thing is massively depressing - so many people on BOTH sides, making their decisions based on ignorance, prejudice and misinformation.

Ipsos Mori did an interesting piece of work a few weeks ago, asking people various questions on the EU. The level of ignorance was unbelievable. The avge Brit thinks the EU spends 27% of its budget on Admin (the actual figure is 6%). In terms of inward investment from the EU, the average Leave voter thinks the EU accounts for 28% of such investment - whereas it's really 48%. Regarding EU immigrants, on average we think they comprise 15% of the population (Vote Leavers think 20%) - the actual figure is 5%. Most people think the largest number of EU immigrants come from Eastern Europe - whereas those from Western Europe are more numerous (immigrants from Ireland, Germany, Italy, France and Spain alone comprise 1.1m of our population). Apparently 40% of Brits think EU immigrants are sending an average of 20% of their child benefit back home. The actual figure is 0.3%.

If we vote Brexit there will be large numbers of people who do so on the basis of false (some would say malicious) anti-EU rhetoric. I would also say (being a "Remainer"), that the Remain camp are not guilt-free either. But the evidence from the surveys is that people are more negatively mis-informed about the EU than positively mis-informed.

 

[Goldstone1976]

To paraphrase Sadiq Khan, "working class boy, middle class man."

Fortunately it means that I don't have that middle-class liberal guilt about hating what the working-class in the UK stands for.

...but there's a reasonable chance that your kids will, given they don't have the working class bit. That's social mobility for ya. Still, keeps the therapists employed, I spose.

 

[Jim in the West]

Because that's what we are voting for.... control.... EEA is not what we are signing up for...

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Unfortunately, if we vote for a Brexit we do not know what we are voting for, because the Vote Leave campaign has not told us the model we will adopt. This, in my view, is a massive "get out clause" for the Remain camp if the Brexit vote actually happens.

 

[Boy Blue]

Can you provide a link to the actual alleged quote rather than a leave poster that anyone could produce?

Sure.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36510009

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/679334

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/03/camerons-support-for-turkeys-eu-membership-should-worry-us-all/

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

The S*n is a horrible newspaper I agree, but even though it is wrong a lot of the time, this time it may just be right. After all, remainers firmly believe that 9 out of 10 economic 'experts' - who have frequently got it wrong in the past - are so right this time that their predictions shouldn't even be questioned.

So your argument for why people should not believe experts in their field is that The Sun newspaper MAY be right about something for the first time?

If you'd said "The Sun are backing Brexit for xenophobic and racial reasons, as they have been for the last 40 years, and I agree with said reasoning", then at least you'd have garnered respect for your honesty. The notion that The Sun are doing any of this for any other reason than to appeal to it's racist readership to further it's own xenophobic overtones is nothing short of ignorant.