[Politics] Brexit

[Westdene Seagull]

There's a lot more going wrong at the Home Office, than going right.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-44227122

Agreed but your statement "There are 3 million Europeans living in this country who will not have any rights after March of next year." is fundamentally not true and even the EU don't agree with it.

 

[Baldseagull]

And yet even in the EUs own words - both the examples you've mentioned will allow them to stay post withdrawl - https://ec.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/services/your-rights/Brexit_en - likewise for your friends.

I'd suggest the first is just a payment issue - I've had perfectly usable cards rejected on occassions. I'd be interested in an update if that person contacted the Home Office and arranged an alternative method of payment. Maybe the second person should appeal or go for Settled Status rather than PR.

There's always going to be examples of things going wrong - it doesn't mean the rights to stay aren't actually there.

You are correct, mistakes happen, but sometimes those mistakes lead to deportations, as in the case of the Windrush children. Sometimes those mistakes lead to being locked up. Sometimes those mistakes lead to being denied a tenancy, or a job, or a loan. It is not just not being able to buy that piece of tat off Amazon because your card was declined.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You are correct, mistakes happen, but sometimes those mistakes lead to deportations, as in the case of the Windrush children. Sometimes those mistakes lead to being locked up. Sometimes those mistakes lead to being denied a tenancy, or a job, or a loan. It is not just not being able to buy that piece of tat off Amazon because your card was declined.

I don't disagree but my point was about the statement of lack of rights after March which is absolutely not true.

 

[beorhthelm]

isnt "permanent residency" required for taking on British citizenship in the UK?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I don't disagree but my point was about the statement of lack of rights after March which is absolutely not true.

So what rights will they have?

 

[beorhthelm]

So what rights will they have?

i know this: Settled status means that you can live in the UK for as long as you want. You will have access to public funds and services and you can apply for British citizenship. Any children born in the UK after you get settled status will automatically be British citizens.

(lifted from internet from one search. its almost as if you want there to be a hard exit and ton of problems)

 

[Thunder Bolt]

i know this: Settled status means that you can live in the UK for as long as you want. You will have access to public funds and services and you can apply for British citizenship. Any children born in the UK after you get settled status will automatically be British citizens.

(lifted from internet from one search. its almost as if you want there to be a hard exit and ton of problems)

I am talking about a No Deal Brexit and there's nothing to indicate that it is going to be anything else (at the moment)

There was a human chain around Downing Street protesting about this which has been covered extensively in the foreign press but nothing from the UK media, at all.

https://www.philstar.com/world/2018...sters-form-human-chain-outside-downing-street

[tweet]1059729638690353152[/tweet]

 

[beorhthelm]

I am talking about a No Deal Brexit and there's nothing to indicate that it is going to be anything else (at the moment)

as i understand settled status will apply regardless, its already in place.

this is what we need anyway, some form of residency registration applied to all the population, then we'd be in line with rest of Europe on handling immigration.

 

[Baldseagull]

I don't disagree but my point was about the statement of lack of rights after March which is absolutely not true.

That situation is not clear, as much as both sides agree that those here should maintain their current rights, both sides agree that there should not be a hard border in Northern Ireland, yet the mechanism is not agreed upon and there are a few months left, there is still the possibility of leaving with no deal. If that happens, the individual countries will decide how British residents there are treated, and we may well have different rules for different EU citizens. It is easy for us to say it will be fine, and I think it most likely will be, but I am not one of those that might be directly affected if it isn't.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

as i understand settled status will apply regardless, its already in place.

this is what we need anyway, some form of residency registration applied to all the population, then we'd be in line with rest of Europe on handling immigration.

Nothing is in place. We keep being told it's 95% done, but they can't sort out the Irish border yet.

 

[beorhthelm]

Nothing is in place. We keep being told it's 95% done, but they can't sort out the Irish border yet.

settled status is in place: you can apply and go through the process today. not dependent on withdrawal agreements or new relations in the future. only thing i cant tell is if this is through primary or secondary legislation.
interesting irony, Irish citizens bypass the settle status through Common Travel Agreement.

i do agree the "95%" is getting repetitious, and its only the difficult bit left.

 

[pastafarian]

We cannot permanently end free movement of people whilst retaining free movement of goods and services, we could break the rules, but there would be a reaction from the EU preventing us from enjoying some of the other benefits of membership. So if you are looking for a method of doing it without leaving, we can just do it and suffer the consequences, but we are British and we like to play by the rules, even if we we try to make the rules favour us unfairly, I hope that answers your question.
.

I agree,but you and i must be wrong. Thunder Bolt is quite clear though on the opposite in that we have always been in control of our EU borders and have always had the controls at our disposal but we just dont bother. The controls to treat eu citizens identically to non eu citizens with quotas and permits to enter for living and working must therefore( if she is telling the truth) be defined legally with a mechanism to carry them out, if they are available( as claimed) and we simply dont bother utilising the available mechanism.
Dont forget the underlying message accompanying the claim we have always had the ability of EU border controls, and therefore had controls to manage numbers with visas and quotas is that if we had used these available controls, immigration would not have been an issue, everyone would have been happy and we would have remained happy members of the EU with no repercussions whilst effectively ending free movement because we utilised some mythical EU legal protocol that we dont bother using.
Its telling no one seems to be able to find this mythical mechanism of border control we have always had but dont bother with

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Nothing is in place. We keep being told it's 95% done, but they can't sort out the Irish border yet.

Settled Status is in place. Well the EU say it is and I think I might believe them a little more, despite being a Brexiteer, than the odd twitter poster.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

That situation is not clear, as much as both sides agree that those here should maintain their current rights, both sides agree that there should not be a hard border in Northern Ireland, yet the mechanism is not agreed upon and there are a few months left, there is still the possibility of leaving with no deal. If that happens, the individual countries will decide how British residents there are treated, and we may well have different rules for different EU citizens. It is easy for us to say it will be fine, and I think it most likely will be, but I am not one of those that might be directly affected if it isn't.

This is the timeline for Brexit. We are already behind schedule.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44374613

 

[ManOfSussex]

settled status is in place: you can apply and go through the process today. not dependent on withdrawal agreements or new relations in the future. only thing i cant tell is if this is through primary or secondary legislation.
interesting irony, Irish citizens bypass the settle status through Common Travel Agreement.

i do agree the "95%" is getting repetitious, and its only the difficult bit left.

It's not in place as it's still being piloted and you can't go through the process today - it's not being fully opened to applicants until March of next year.

 

[daveinplzen]

Belgium manages to repatriate thousands a year. Maybe they know how the rules work better than British politicians.

 

[daveinplzen]

I agree,but you and i must be wrong. Thunder Bolt is quite clear though on the opposite in that we have always been in control of our EU borders and have always had the controls at our disposal but we just dont bother. The controls to treat eu citizens identically to non eu citizens with quotas and permits to enter for living and working must therefore( if she is telling the truth) be defined legally with a mechanism to carry them out, if they are available( as claimed) and we simply dont bother utilising the available mechanism.
Dont forget the underlying message accompanying the claim we have always had the ability of EU border controls, and therefore had controls to manage numbers with visas and quotas is that if we had used these available controls, immigration would not have been an issue, everyone would have been happy and we would have remained happy members of the EU with no repercussions whilst effectively ending free movement because we utilised some mythical EU legal protocol that we dont bother using.
Its telling no one seems to be able to find this mythical mechanism of border control we have always had but dont bother with

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

(10) Persons exercising their right of residence should not, however, become an unreasonable
burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during an initial period of
residence. Therefore, the right of residence for Union citizens and their family members for
periods in excess of three months should be subject to conditions

 

[Thunder Bolt]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

(10) Persons exercising their right of residence should not, however, become an unreasonable
burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during an initial period of
residence. Therefore, the right of residence for Union citizens and their family members for
periods in excess of three months should be subject to conditions

I've posted this several times but some posters ignore it.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-back-control-immigration-eu-directive-brexit

In 1998, Tony Blair removed exit checks which made it a lot more awkward to check the three month rule. They were reinstalled 8th April 2015.
https://www.independent.co.uk/trave...ting-travellers-make-a-comeback-10153273.html

 

[beorhthelm]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

(10) Persons exercising their right of residence should not, however, become an unreasonable
burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during an initial period of
residence. Therefore, the right of residence for Union citizens and their family members for
periods in excess of three months should be subject to conditions

trouble is we dont have any control around residency, so effectively this is unenforceable in the UK. no one seems to want to discuss introducing such controls though.

 

[pastafarian]

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

(10) Persons exercising their right of residence should not, however, become an unreasonable
burden on the social assistance system of the host Member State during an initial period of
residence. Therefore, the right of residence for Union citizens and their family members for
periods in excess of three months should be subject to conditions

Um,,,,,so what.
A directive on citizens and there families to move and live freely around member states with conditions months after they have gained entry anyway has no bearing on the process of border controls at the point of entry with quotas and permissions to enter for work or living prior to entry being gained.
I hope you wernt suggesting chasing people up who want to come and live and work here months after they have freely waltzed in anyway now constitutes adequate border control .......that would be spectacularly daft.