[Politics] Brexit

[Herr Tubthumper]

Give it a rest your like a broken record

Put me on ignore then you fool. It's quite simple.

PS it's you're, not your. And you need to add punctuation. If you're going to criticise me at least get your English correct.

 

[ROKERITE]

James Dyson joins the brexit campaign. That's the self made billionaire. Branding the remain warnings on trade as 'Absolute Cobblers'.

James Dyson was a committed Europhile till he realised what a disastrous anti-prosperity organisation it was. Like many others the scales fell from his eyes when he became aware of the truth about the bloated, corrupt gravy-train that is The EU.

 

[dingodan]

Surely the point is that references to Hitler are designed to create an association that sticks in the mind of some voters. Not those that read beyond headlines but for those that don't because a vote is a vote and they (and probably the remain camp) aren't too fussed how they get it.

Then you would have to believe that someone reading the headline would be convinced by it. Why? All the headline does is cause offense, look at the reaction from people. How many people have said, "yeah, that makes sense"? I can't imagine many have. As with most things being said by the leave campaign, it takes detail, it takes reading and accounting for the whole issue. The information is only useful and interesting to those people who are willing to take the time to read and think about something in full. To anyone who just reading headlines it isn't going to cut it.

That has been characteristic of this whole debate IMO. When you hear what the remain campaign say, it's gotcha one-liners and spin. When you hear what the leave campaign say, it's very hard to deal with it intelligently unless you are willing to exercise your intelligence, it isn't about one line, it isn't about gotcha and spin. At first I think these things helped remain and hindered leave. But I also think the people of this country are a) reasonably intelligent and b) have little patience for spin and politics. So IMO what we have seen is a gradual wearing away of peoples patience for the one liner spin machine, and gradual increase in understanding of what leave are saying, and that is why the tables have started to turn, IMO.

For example, in the debate, all 3 of the remain side said variants of the following, "The leave side say we should have an Australian style points system, but Australia has more immigration per head than the UK, so that system would increase immigration." What that is doing is playing off of the (percieved) ignorance of the public. It's spin and insulting to the intelligence, but it's also one line gotcha in the style of politics as usual. If you get away from the one liner and look a little closer you see that Australia wants more immigration. A points system didn't inherently mean more immigration, it meant choosing how much immigration, a points system is entirely controllable by it's very nature.

I'm convinced that with the UK population today, thoughtful and intelligent argument will win out over political spin which treats people like they are stupid.

 

[larus]

Surely the point is that references to Hitler are designed to create an association that sticks in the mind of some voters. Not those that read beyond headlines but for those that don't because a vote is a vote and they (and probably the remain camp) aren't too fussed how they get it.

This whole debate is so far removed from reality it's unbelievable. I would agree that the linking of the EU to Hitler is unsavoury, but, as has been pointed out, it was linking the aims/ambitions of the EU (I.e. a superstate) to the aims of Hitler and others before. At no point were the methods linked. However, what was said has been twisted by the remain camp into saying the the EU is like Hitler, which is a lie.

I don't see the same objections when the remain camp and their supporters (IMF, BoE, CBI) come out with exaggerated claims on the economic impact (the £4300 claim, the 9.5% drop in GDP - far worse than from the Wall Street Crash). If you want a sensible and reasoned debate, the you should be willing to also admit the scaremongering from your side.

I accept that there will be short-term effects from a BREXIT vote.
I accept that we may enter into some deal with the EU which allows some migration. But, if we don't we can still trade with the EU and we will be able to enter into negotiations with other countries on open trade. The level of tariffs/quotas around the world is much lower than when we entered into the EEC in 1974, to the economic case is not as complelling as it would be if this was not the case.
I don't accept that there will be Armageddon if we leave and the economy will tank.
I don't accept that the city will suffer (it didn't suffer by not being in the Euro).

By being able to have more control on immigration, this will reduce the constant pressure on housing, schools, hospitals from the ever increasing population. I don't hear how the Remainers would solve these issues. Our population has grown by about 10m over the last 10 years I believe. This is a huge impact to services/infrastructure.

 

[dingodan]

Correct. Boris knew what he was saying, knew what he was doing, and knew who he was aiming for with his Hitler comments.

The idea of a Brexit and Boris and Gove running the Uk fills me with utter horror. Remain if it's just to keep these two at bay.

Such a short sighted view. You might keep those two "at bay" but you will get an unelected government for keeps. & maybe one day it will be one being run by the likes of people like Boris and Gove, then there will be no keeping them at bay, because you will have no democratic control. Don't be so short sighted.

 

[ROKERITE]

(It's a video, rather than a screenshot)

Two points. Point one, don't read headlines, read direct quotes, they are often different.

Point two, take a look at the rise of nationalism accross Europe in recent years, to what extent do the circumstances created by the EU prevent nationalism? To what extent do they inadvertently forster and encourage nationalism?

There is a serious problem accross the EU with the rise of the far right and dispite the best intentions of the EU, the rise of the far right in Europe is happening because of the EU and it's policies.

Indeed it is which is one of the reasons some on the left are campaigning strongly for Leave. As someone on the right I've been more impressed by Labour Leave than most of the right-wing Brexiteers. Brendan Chilton from down your way is a superb orator, though I'd imagine I wouldn't agree with him on most subjects. This referendum is possibly THE most important subject though. That's why there are some very strange bedfellows on both sides.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

The silver lining if we Brexit, the anti everything vote gains popularity and Labour with Corbyn in charge win the next election. He will then be shackles free to bring in much needed changes to the system (why he is a Brexiter) Pure sovereign power with few checks and balances to take us in a fairer society.

This does not make sense has Corbyn switched sides again?

 

[The Clamp]

13 Nobel Laureate's have stated exit would be disastrous. I think they are worth listening to. Not oafish bullies like Boris.

 

[The Clamp]

James Dyson was a committed Europhile till he realised what a disastrous anti-prosperity organisation it was. Like many others the scales fell from his eyes when he became aware of the truth about the bloated, corrupt gravy-train that is The EU.

So you'd rather be left at the mercy of an unregulated ,bloated, unelected, non tax paying House of Lords?

 

[5ways]

13 Nobel Laureate's have stated exit would be disastrous. I think they are worth listening to. Not oafish bullies like Boris.

Why should we listen to these so-called experts? One of them wrote 'less' when she should have written 'fewer' in her PhD thesis 25 years ago. If she was wrong then undoubtedly she is wrong now.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

(It's a video, rather than a screenshot)

Two points. Point one, don't read headlines, read direct quotes, they are often different.

Point two, take a look at the rise of nationalism accross Europe in recent years, to what extent do the circumstances created by the EU prevent nationalism? To what extent do they inadvertently forster and encourage nationalism?

There is a serious problem accross the EU with the rise of the far right and dispite the best intentions of the EU, the rise of the far right in Europe is happening because of the EU and it's policies.

And point three

Always understand that experienced politicians very rarely say things by accident. When Boris brought up Hitler he knew exactly what he was doing. He was putting Hitler and the European Union in the same paragraph, certain in the knowledge that one would rub off on the other and a useful association would be created in the minds of the people he was trying to persuade. Obviously, he lined up an escape route that allowed people to claim that 'historically-speaking, looking at the facts in isolation, what Mr Johnson said could be regarded as not inaccurate' but his intention in bringing up Hitler was clear. And disreputable. And maybe, tragically, even effective.

 

[ROKERITE]

So you'd rather be left at the mercy of an unregulated ,bloated, unelected, non tax paying House of Lords?

That's an interesting comparison. We haven't been at the mercy of The House of Lords since 1911, when a democratically elected government got fed up with being overruled by an unelected bunch of toffs and effectively ended its powers. I look forward to a day when our democratically elected government does the same to The European Commission.

 

[The Clamp]

That's an interesting comparison. We haven't been at the mercy of The House of Lords since 1911, when a democratically elected government got fed up with being overruled by an unelected bunch of toffs and effectively ended its powers. I look forward to a day when our democratically elected government does the same to The European Commission.

To some degree, you are correct. Perhaps "at the mercy of" is an exaggeration on my part. Just as you exaggerate about EP ruling us.

 

[GoldWithFalmer]

And point three

Always understand that experienced politicians very rarely say things by accident. When Boris brought up Hitler he knew exactly what he was doing. He was putting Hitler and the European Union in the same paragraph, certain in the knowledge that one would rub off on the other and a useful association would be created in the minds of the people he was trying to persuade. Obviously, he lined up an escape route that allowed people to claim that 'historically-speaking, looking at the facts in isolation, what Mr Johnson said could be regarded as not inaccurate' but his intention in bringing up Hitler was clear. And disreputable. And maybe, tragically, even effective.

To ignore the past and sweep it under the carpet could be dangerous,i would be glad the subject has arisen,it gives people chance to talk about and hopefully solve lingering bad feeling....to ignore it and yet feel it without discussion is a far worse prospect.

 

[dingodan]

And point three

Always understand that experienced politicians very rarely say things by accident. When Boris brought up Hitler he knew exactly what he was doing. He was putting Hitler and the European Union in the same paragraph, certain in the knowledge that one would rub off on the other and a useful association would be created in the minds of the people he was trying to persuade. Obviously, he lined up an escape route that allowed people to claim that 'historically-speaking, looking at the facts in isolation, what Mr Johnson said could be regarded as not inaccurate' but his intention in bringing up Hitler was clear. And disreputable. And maybe, tragically, even effective.

Like I said, you would have to believe that anyone could hear that "the EU is like Hitler" and be convinced on that basis. Nobody would be. What Boris was saying was much more nuanced than you are suggesting. Saying "The EU is like Hitler" would be completely inaffective. But the intelligent and thoughtful point that we have always traditionally been against the uniting of Europe under a single control structure, and that it is not by definition, a positive pursuit, is a perfectly valid point. But only to people exercising their intelligence. Anyone who reads only the headline, anyone who only sees EU = Hitler and does not exercise their intelligence, will have one response, like you, they will take offense to it.

 

[Horton's halftime iceberg]

Anyone who reads only the headline, anyone who only sees EU = Hitler and does not exercise their intelligence, will have one response, like you, they will take offense to it.

Well in this world of soundbites and 24 hour news, I for one don't believe that someone with an Eton and Oxford privileged education makes these comments without thought.

Its classic Trump - say it brashly then let the spin doctors tidy it up. Livingstone resigned over his comments, why does Boris not take responsibility for his own.comments.

Its a shocking and tasteless comment, and as you have shown above can be argued without reference to a facist and his ideals.

 

[dingodan]

Well in this world of soundbites and 24 hour news, I for one don't believe that someone with an Eton and Oxford privileged education makes these comments without thought.

Its classic Trump - say it brashly then let the spin doctors tidy it up. Livingstone resigned over his comments, why does Boris not take responsibility for his own.comments.

Its a shocking and tasteless comment, and as you have shown above can be argued without reference to a facist and his ideals.

He did not make the comments without thought. You read them without thought.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

To quote only fools and horses to you old gits
"You have to have a dream, coz if you don't have a dream, how the bloody hell you gonna have a dream come true!"

Keep dreaming, keep hoping guys[emoji106]

 

[Bladders]

Ayesbury today. In/out.

View attachment 75646

It's going to be a landslide

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

It's going to be a landslide

Yep.

Cameron resigns in 13 days time.