[Politics] Brexit

[clapham_gull]

Pretty sure "snowflake" was a term coined by the right wing to mock younger generations but actually describes themselves much better.

Those younger generation who couldn't be arsed to get out of bed to vote to remain but continue to blame others who did and voted out.

Yes I know.

 

[beorhthelm]

Going to attempt to answer why all those conditions are being added though? Or are you just going to avoid it?

of course im not answering, you're trolling. dragged up old arguement from the leave camp being played back in reverse, a bit of fun.

 

[clapham_gull]

Yeah yeah, we were ALL in bed. That is it, just make sweeping generalisations instead of answering the questions.

I voted remain and think we should stay in the EU. Unfortunately your "it's everyone else's fault accept my own" stance does little or nothing to further our cause.

Neither does your reaction that my comment was directed AT YOU.

Rather than a sweeping generalisation I'm afraid the statistics back up my argument. I'm saddened by the fact that the very generation who Brexit will most affect were statistically far less likely to vote against it.

It's far more complex than a simple binary understanding which remainers are often as guilty of as remainers. I know three Indian/Asians personally who all voted to leave. They were pissed off that their families "at home" were at the back of the queue to enter this country in the context of our Imperial history. I tend to agree.

I read with laughter that European bureaucrat who claimed that the UK was now planning to discriminate against EU nationals.

The EU subject is incredibly nuanced.

We've benefited from their environmental and social justice laws, but at the same time it's acted as an enabler for all the negative effects of globalisation.

You have a Labour opposition "flirting" with the possibility of another referendum but at the same proposing a nationalisation agenda that would probably be illegal under EU law. An EU that the leader and his loudest Union backers hate.

Don't blame the people who voted out. Just blame Cameron who opened the can of worms and the disingenuous Corbyn who has spent years protesting against the EU but hid when he realised his young voter base were too young to remember.

 

[Mental Lental]

riiiight we voted on whether to remain or leave the EU, but stay with all the component parts of the EU. gotcha.

There's plenty of evidence that this is true though. There's obviously a subsection of Leave voters that are happy to stay in the single market/custom's union and all that entails. The question is whether or not that subsection is big enough to imply that more people in this country want to stay in the single market rather than leave it. If the percentage of leave voters that want to stay in the SM is significantly high, logic dictates that there is no mandate for leaving it. And there is evidence to suggest that only a meager 35% of leave voters actually thought it meant completely leaving the single market:



He may be being a bit overly vociferous in the manner in which he is conveying it, but Plooks is basically correct. In my opinion, your overly dismissive mocking attitude to his point is marking you out as a bit of a Brexit nutter, rather than one of the more reasonable leave posters contributing to this thread. Which is the image that I had of you up until this recent tirade.

Shame.

 

[clapham_gull]

I pretty much agree. We/the eu should do more to equalise things with people outside.
Also, regarding younger voters: what do you expect? The last time they turned out in any vague force the lib dems then turned around and shafted them. Why would you even bother voting when you know you will get ****ed over?

I personally blame the lib dems for everything (*), but the belief they "shafted you" is too simplistic.

The stupidity was for voting them in the first place. Due to their dissipated support, they built up a history of supporting "local" concerns at the expense of having any real policies or identity.

The result was they would throw any old s*** in their manifesto hoping they would get the odd MP or control a council.

With a hung parliament they finally had a real opportunity to change the electoral system to their benefit, but should have got in bed with the weakened party (Labour) for a real chance for that to happen.

Unfortunately (for them) they got it bed with the Tories who slowly strangled them to death.

You only blame them because you think there were in Government, but if you read Nick Clegg's autobiography you will realise they were f#### from day one.

In any case, the Lib Dems entered a coalition and would only have entered a coalition. In such circumstance you expect a compromise and promises are thrown out the window.

They stupidly weakened themselves by apologising rather than simply say - sorry we were forced to throw that one away.

(* 1 ) Got Cameron into number 10 and we are where we are.

(* 2 ) Turned down a coalition with Labour which allowed the party to lurch to the left leading to an old school Bennite anti EU bearded weirdo to take control of the party.

 

[pastafarian]

There's plenty of evidence that this is true though. There's obviously a subsection of Leave voters that are happy to stay in the single market/custom's union and all that entails. The question is whether or not that subsection is big enough to imply that more people in this country want to stay in the single market rather than leave it. If the percentage of leave voters that want to stay in the SM is significantly high, logic dictates that there is no mandate for leaving it. And there is evidence to suggest that only a meager 35% of leave voters actually thought it meant completely leaving the single market:

View attachment 101051

He may be being a bit overly vociferous in the manner in which he is conveying it, but Plooks is basically correct. In my opinion, your overly dismissive mocking attitude to his point is marking you out as a bit of a Brexit nutter, rather than one of the more reasonable leave posters contributing to this thread. Which is the image that I had of you up until this recent tirade.

Shame.

Or…… 7% of leave voters wanted to keep the current rules on free movement and 89% of leavers wanted it limited or ended.
29% of remainers wanted to keep the current rules on free movement and 68% of remainers wanted free movement limited or ended.
This echoes the high number of people across both sides who wanted immigration reduced and controlled over the past few years.
When you recognise that the EU will never sacrifice a reduction in free movement whilst being members of the single market that’s quite an endorsement to end free movement and subsequently not be members of the single market.
Thanks for digging that up.

 

[portslade seagull]

I would have liked them to draw a few red lines, one being the tuition fees. If the Tories didn't agree, sorry no coalition. It would have made them much stronger with the people who voted them in!

But Labour under Blair brought those fees in with help from the lib dems

 

[portslade seagull]

You are exposing your I'm alright jack attitude again

No don't avoid the question. You stated 1m job losses. Please advise where these will be seeing as your taking glee in others misfortune to prove a point

 

[beorhthelm]

He may be being a bit overly vociferous in the manner in which he is conveying it, but Plooks is basically correct. In my opinion, your overly dismissive mocking attitude to his point is marking you out as a bit of a Brexit nutter, rather than one of the more reasonable leave posters contributing to this thread. Which is the image that I had of you up until this recent tirade.

i mock because remain advocates and the EU spent so much time telling us we cant pick and choose, which Plooks denies ever happened. and the daft roast dinner and doughnuts with beans is shirley a wind up. brexiteers have been routinely shouted down and mocked for daring to ask for access single market or other benefits of membership, now its ok to say this should be the outcome? sounds good to me, lets do that.

btw his argument was on freedom of movement, not single market.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

A bit worrying that we are only 12 days away from the make-or-break summit conference on Brexit and our government still seems not a great deal nearer a negotiated outcome than it was in 2016. There are some positive noises coming from Tusk, but the Irish border question appears to be a long way from resolution - or even clarity.

 

[pastafarian]

A bit worrying that we are only 12 days away from the make-or-break summit conference on Brexit and our government still seems not a great deal nearer a negotiated outcome than it was in 2016. There are some positive noises coming from Tusk, but the Irish border question appears to be a long way from resolution - or even clarity.

I believe the big business of the european union are frustrated too that their side seems not a great deal nearer a negotiated outcome than it was in 2016 either. I hear they are pushing the EU to stop messing with their economies and make a deal with the UK.

 

[Mental Lental]

i mock because remain advocates and the EU spent so much time telling us we cant pick and choose, which Plooks denies ever happened. and the daft roast dinner and doughnuts with beans is shirley a wind up. brexiteers have been routinely shouted down and mocked for daring to ask for access single market or other benefits of membership, now its ok to say this should be the outcome? sounds good to me, lets do that.

btw his argument was on freedom of movement, not single market.

Single market and all that entails. Which obviously means freedom of movement as well. Once again you are quick to snipe and point score on relatively minor points that matter not a jot to the issue at hand. For what it's worth, I think it's way too late to even consider a Norway deal now after everything that's been said and done. In hindsight I feel that a pursuit of a Norway model Brexit would have been just about the only way any government could have technically delivered the result of the referendum IMO. As it is, pushing for a "have our cake and eat it" Brexit where The UK gets to cherry pick the bits of the EU that it likes and get rid of the bits it doesn't was never going to result in any successful "deal". Especially as the EU made it clear right from the start that they will not compromise on any of the core freedoms. The fact that the buffoons in charge of this mess chose to ignore this and try anyway is a testament to their absolute incompetence.

They are literally so inept that it's now looking like there will not be a Brexit at all, and if there is it'll be such a car crash Brexit that we'll be clamouring to get back in 10 years later and will end up being fully integrated members without the vetoes and backstops we have now.

Good job Theresa.

 

[pastafarian]

Single market and all that entails. Which obviously means freedom of movement as well. Once again you are quick to snipe and point score on relatively minor points that matter not a jot to the issue at hand. For what it's worth, I think it's way too late to even consider a Norway deal now after everything that's been said and done. In hindsight I feel that a pursuit of a Norway model Brexit would have been just about the only way any government could have technically delivered the result of the referendum IMO. As it is, pushing for a "have our cake and eat it" Brexit where The UK gets to cherry pick the bits of the EU that it likes and get rid of the bits it doesn't was never going to result in any successful "deal". Especially as the EU made it clear right from the start that they will not compromise on any of the core freedoms. The fact that the buffoons in charge of this mess chose to ignore this and try anyway is a testament to their absolute incompetence.

They are literally so inept that it's now looking like there will not be a Brexit at all, and if there is it'll be such a car crash Brexit that we'll be clamouring to get back in 10 years later and will end up being fully integrated members without the vetoes and backstops we have now.

Good job Theresa.

Are you really this dumb?
Having a Norway deal means keeping free movement. Please pay attention

 

[pb21]

Or…… 7% of leave voters wanted to keep the current rules on free movement and 89% of leavers wanted it limited or ended.
29% of remainers wanted to keep the current rules on free movement and 68% of remainers wanted free movement limited or ended.
This echoes the high number of people across both sides who wanted immigration reduced and controlled over the past few years.
When you recognise that the EU will never sacrifice a reduction in free movement whilst being members of the single market that’s quite an endorsement to end free movement and subsequently not be members of the single market.
Thanks for digging that up.

How many people want to limit/remove freedom of movement (or any other aspect of being in the EU) at any cost? I don't think that can be deduced from either the referendum result, or this Table.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

https://news.sky.com/story/bite-his-hand-off-brexiteers-seize-on-donald-tusks-intervention-11517158
That'll do for me.

First I have heard of a Canada +++ deal, I would take that too.

 

[Blue Valkyrie]

First I have heard of a Canada +++ deal, I would take that too.

Canada ( with however many plusses ) doesn't have an Irish border.

May has to resolve this issue ( not with unproven rechnology ) and then Canada with many plusses can be done.

May's disasterous election, meaning the DUP money tree had to come out, made Canada billion plusses much more difficult.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Canada ( with however many plusses ) doesn't have an Irish border.

May has to resolve this issue ( not with unproven rechnology ) and then Canada with many plusses can be done.

May's disasterous election, meaning the DUP money tree had to come out, made Canada billion plusses much more difficult.

Let's hope something can be sorted out.

 

[The Clamp]

Leavers are petrified of keeping FoM. The whole reason they voted was to stop foreigners coming to the UK and what a waste of time and effort it would be if that didn’t happen.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Canada ( with however many plusses ) doesn't have an Irish border.

May has to resolve this issue ( not with unproven rechnology ) and then Canada with many plusses can be done.

May's disasterous election, meaning the DUP money tree had to come out, made Canada billion plusses much more difficult.

I heard an interview with one of the Canadian negotiators on their EU deal. I think we have to accept that


a) he knows of what he speaks

b) he is not a Remainer

c) he is not a member of the UK establishment


Indeed it's quite possible that he knows more about these sorts of deals than all the rest of us on this thread added together + Liam Fox + Boris Johnson + Dom Raab (thought I throw in a +++)


My takeaway from listening to this was mainly 'by Christ that sounds tricky' (a general impression) and (more specifically) that if the EU made this deal with us and we made it with them (yes, I know I'm slow) then subsequent room for manoeuvre for other deals might be limited. In other words, the idea that we could sign this and then go out and do all sorts of other deals (which has never really convinced me anyway - but that's another matter) might well be constrained by the terms of the Canada type deal. Also he was quite sceptical of the potential of the +++ variant.


In short I think that - in the old saying - the devil will be in the detail.

 

[nicko31]

First I have heard of a Canada +++ deal, I would take that too.

Thought you were posting yesterday you wanted to expand manufacturing. Make your mind up...