[Politics] Brexit

[daveinplzen]

I think immigration will go down, and I'm hoping we won't be subject to these EU rules on FOM. Everyone can be treated the same then. It's up to the government to put in some proper rules across the board and only allow people in who will add proper value to this country.

Are you not paying attention? The rules were and still are there!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

This is my point. The minimum wage is at fault. If it was higher the immigrants could not push wages down and people could live off of it.

Rubbish - you're assuming all roles affected by immigration are minimum wage roles. IT has seen wages suppressed due to an increased number of workers being available ..... and IT doesn't pay anywhere close to the minimum wage generally.

 

[The Clamp]

Rubbish - you're assuming all roles affected by immigration are minimum wage roles. IT has seen wages suppressed due to an increased number of workers being available ..... and IT doesn't pay anywhere close to the minimum wage generally.

You’re just gonna get cheap Indian labour coming and doing exactly the same thing once we start handing out work visas in return for trade deals. Didn’t really think this through, did you!

 

[Simster]

Yes I understand. But, as a country, we decided that the minimum wage is an acceptable wage. So we have decided that john can be undercut. He could be undercut by Frank from Wrexham as well.
You issue here is with minimum wage, if the minimum wage was good enough john would be fine being paid it and would not be able to be undercut.

I'm a remainer and before now, I'd always taken Westdene's assertion that you were an idiot with a pinch of salt. However, it seems he's right. I'm curious, how much do you earn then? I wonder how happy you'd be if cheap foreign labour cut your pay packet by a third. FFS.

The minimum wage is there to act as a floor on what is an acceptable wage and prevent an unnecessary race to the bottom which ends up costing the tax payer in benefits anyway. That DOESN'T mean we want ALL labour earning a pitiful wage simply by distorting the labour market with cheap foreign imports.

The issue here is that as a nation, it seems we didn't have to accept this cheap labour, but the Tory government of the time decided not to impose the barrier on entry. To them, keeping middle England happy with the influx of cheap labour was more important than the well being of the vulnerable native low skilled workforce.

You’re just gonna get cheap Indian labour coming and doing exactly the same thing once we start handing out work visas in return for trade deals. Didn’t really think this through, did you!

The point is, that is our decision to make, unlike the swathes of unskilled labour from East Europe (which I was led to believe was a necessary evil but actually wasn't).

 

[The Clamp]

I'm a remainer and before now, I'd always taken Westdene's assertion that you were an idiot with a pinch of salt. However, it seems he's right. I'm curious, how much do you earn then? I wonder how happy you'd be if cheap foreign labour cut your pay packet by a third. FFS.

The minimum wage is there to act as a floor on what is an acceptable wage and prevent an unnecessary race to the bottom which ends up costing the tax payer in benefits anyway. That DOESN'T mean we want ALL labour earning a pitiful wage simply by distorting the labour market with cheap foreign imports.

The issue here is that as a nation, it seems we didn't have to accept this cheap labour, but the Tory government of the time decided not to impose the barrier on entry. To them, keeping middle England happy with the influx of cheap labour was more important than the well being of the vulnerable native low skilled workforce.



The point is, that is our decision to make, unlike the swathes of unskilled labour from East Europe (which I was led to believe was a necessary evil but actually wasn't).

It’s not your decision at all. What a flaccid argument.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So? That is the market value for that job. Or do you want a heavily controlled market?

Errr .... because YOU keep saying that the minimum wage is to blame for wage suppression. It isn't.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I was in favour of a referendum on exiting the EU so I voted UKIP in the last GE but one to keep the pressure on the Tory promise of offering one. Farage says some things I agree with but others that I don't - much the same as Corbyn and May. And there in lies the issue here - some people appear to think this is a black and white issue - that if you want to leave you must agree with Farage completely. I don't and never have. I haven't changed my mind at all.

I know you have always been open and explained your reasoning for voting UKIP and Leave before, but the thing I still struggle with is when you have said previously

What I hope for is that we agree a trade deal but without staying in the single market, the customs union or under any jurisdiction of the ECJ. Is that what is likely to happen ? Hell no. My guess is one of two things - a hash up of the Chequers plan at the very last minute which makes parties look as though they got what they want but effectively keeps us in the instruments I've mentioned. Or a no deal. I want neither but if I had to pick it would be no deal.

Did you think you could get the trade deal you hoped for at the time you voted for UKIP, and did you still think it was possible to get it at the time of the referendum ?

If you did, when did your opinion change ?
Or, if you didn't, did you expect 'no deal' all along ?

Thanking you in anticipation

 

[Simster]

It’s not your decision at all. What a flaccid argument.

Eh? You said this:
"once we start handing out work visas in return for trade deals."

So that's OUR government negotiating work visas in exchange for trade details, in contrast to say, Romania whose people can work here regardless of what we get from them.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You’re just gonna get cheap Indian labour coming and doing exactly the same thing once we start handing out work visas in return for trade deals. Didn’t really think this through, did you!

Too late .... that's already happened and was accelerated by offshoring - led with gusto by the UK government - started by the Tories and lapped up by Labour.

 

[The Clamp]

Eh? You said this:
"once we start handing out work visas in return for trade deals."

So that's OUR government negotiating work visas in exchange for trade details, in contrast to say, Romania whose people can work here regardless of what we get from them.

Right, I see why you mean in that sense but the end result will be the same. Then they will have to lobby for a referendum to leave Earth.

 

[Gwylan]

I think immigration will go down, and I'm hoping we won't be subject to these EU rules on FOM. Everyone can be treated the same then. It's up to the government to put in some proper rules across the board and only allow people in who will add proper value to this country.

You're deluding yourself: immigration won't go down. We've already seen non-EU immigration rising in the past year, we could stop that it we wanted to (but we don't). As others have pointed out, we need people to do the jobs that Brits won't do.

And if we did want to stop them, how are we going to do it? What's going to stop someone coming in a tourist and over-staying? Yes, he or she would be illegal but immigration authorities are already over-stretched so the chances are good that anyone illegal could get away.

Not only that, the government has made clear that will be no border between ROI and NI. So even if we did tighten up border controls here, there'd be nothing stopping Westdene's Tomasz getting a flight to Dublin, getting a bus to Belfast and catching a ferry to Liverpool.No need to show papers at any point in entering the UK and, if he pays cash, no record of him at all.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I know you have always been open and explained your reasoning for voting UKIP and Leave before, but the thing I still struggle with is when you have said previously



Did you think you could get the trade deal you hoped for at the time you voted for UKIP, and did you still think it was possible to get it at the time of the referendum ?

If you did, when did your opinion change ?
Or, if you didn't, did you expect 'no deal' all along ?

Thanking you in anticipation

When I voted UKIP it was purely tactical to 'help' the Tories keep their promise of a referendum.

When I voted in the referendum, yes, of course I thought a deal was possible.

When did my opinion change ? When I saw what a fvck May has made of Brexit ( and just about everything she's done frankly - one of the worst PMs in my life time ).

Out of what is most likely now I hope for a no deal. Plooks is just an idiot to think Norway is a runner at all and May's 'plan' ( I use that word in the loosest sense ) doesn't satisfy anyone and is probably dead in the water.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So you think it is ok to pay minimum wage for a job?

No I don't but I've no idea what that has to do with freedom of movement suppressing wages ?

 

[WATFORD zero]

I'm a remainer and before now, I'd always taken Westdene's assertion that you were an idiot with a pinch of salt. However, it seems he's right. I'm curious, how much do you earn then? I wonder how happy you'd be if cheap foreign labour cut your pay packet by a third. FFS.

The minimum wage is there to act as a floor on what is an acceptable wage and prevent an unnecessary race to the bottom which ends up costing the tax payer in benefits anyway. That DOESN'T mean we want ALL labour earning a pitiful wage simply by distorting the labour market with cheap foreign imports.

The issue here is that as a nation, it seems we didn't have to accept this cheap labour, but the Tory government of the time decided not to impose the barrier on entry. To them, keeping middle England happy with the influx of cheap labour was more important than the well being of the vulnerable native low skilled workforce.



The point is, that is our decision to make, unlike the swathes of unskilled labour from East Europe (which I was led to believe was a necessary evil but actually wasn't).

You have made valid points but you have to balance that against the fact that there are major advantages to the economy of the cheap labour influx that we have had. It increases tax revenue significantly in a nation that's ageing and making increasing demands of the government in the form of pensions and the NHS.

There's no doubt that some of the government thinking regarding not using the controls that were available may be a result of this.

However, you're main point is completely correct in that, if it needed managing, the Government have had the tools to manage both EU and non-EU migration and haven't used them.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

So it should be higher then? That will reduce the amount of wage drop that can happen.

Really, seriously, [MENTION=232]Simster[/MENTION] and I are on the same page here, and you're making it more obvious with every idiotic post of yours.

You've already said you're happy with the level of the minimum wage but I strongly suspect you're paid well over it and so don't really care .... feel free to take a pay cut if it's so acceptable to you !

 

[WATFORD zero]

When I voted UKIP it was purely tactical to 'help' the Tories keep their promise of a referendum.

When I voted in the referendum, yes, of course I thought a deal was possible.

When did my opinion change ? When I saw what a fvck May has made of Brexit ( and just about everything she's done frankly - one of the worst PMs in my life time ).

Out of what is most likely now I hope for a no deal. Plooks is just an idiot to think Norway is a runner at all and May's 'plan' ( I use that word in the loosest sense ) doesn't satisfy anyone and is probably dead in the water.

Thanks for the answer.

But does that imply that you thought the EU would change their stance on 'cherry picking' parts of it if the negotiators/government were different ?

 

[pb21]

You're deluding yourself: immigration won't go down. We've already seen non-EU immigration rising in the past year, we could stop that it we wanted to (but we don't). As others have pointed out, we need people to do the jobs that Brits won't do.

And has been pointed out not only immigrants to do the jobs Brits don’t want to do, but also immigrants to do jobs to pay for older Brits increasing NHS healthcare demands.

Immigration will not go down, although it may become less European based, allowing people from further field to come, in the process making Britain more multi-cultural, which I am sure will please some (not ALL obviously) brexit voters.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Thanks for the answer.

But does that imply that you thought the EU would change their stance on 'cherry picking' parts of it if the negotiators/government were different ?

I thought the UK team might have had some back bone and ..... *shudder* .... planning in place !

 

[WATFORD zero]

I thought the UK team might have had some back bone and ..... *shudder* .... planning in place !

I can't see what they could have had in place that would have significantly changed the EU's stance. Any suggestions ?

From the very beginning, the EU set out what they were prepared to accept, and all we have done is go round in circles, painting ourselves into a corner with red lines, while threatening that if they didn't let us have 'the cherries' we wanted we would go 'no deal'.

I know you'll disagree with me on this, but 'no deal' will not happen. (Not because I don't want it to, but because of the political ramifications) and our Government, MPs and the EU all know this and have done all along.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

You're deluding yourself: immigration won't go down. We've already seen non-EU immigration rising in the past year, we could stop that it we wanted to (but we don't). As others have pointed out, we need people to do the jobs that Brits won't do.

And if we did want to stop them, how are we going to do it? What's going to stop someone coming in a tourist and over-staying? Yes, he or she would be illegal but immigration authorities are already over-stretched so the chances are good that anyone illegal could get away.

Not only that, the government has made clear that will be no border between ROI and NI. So even if we did tighten up border controls here, there'd be nothing stopping Westdene's Tomasz getting a flight to Dublin, getting a bus to Belfast and catching a ferry to Liverpool.No need to show papers at any point in entering the UK and, if he pays cash, no record of him at all.

Likewise how many Non EU migrants have arrived in the EU over the past 5-6 years, who will eventually go on to get a passport giving them access to any country in the EU zone.