[Politics] Brexit

[pb21]

What's wrong with that? Most people would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard Brexit.

I think you're right and most people would, I think the trouble is enough Tory MPs don't want that, so they would scupper the process.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Totally wrong mate. I am not pro Crawley, anti Sussex, or pro Sussex, anti England, or pro England, anti UK, so why should I be pro UK, anti EU? Yes, I want closer union, because I believe that would be better for everyone, but I also want as much power as local as possible. Ultimately, I think it would be useful if there was a global body that collected corporation taxes, global consumer protection law, global workers rights, I think there should be a global minimum standard of living, global healthcare, global animal welfare. The point is not that I have a burning desire for one political structure or another, I have a desire for greater equality in the world, the EU or something like it is a step in that direction, it encourages raising of standards in emerging economies. Dealing with the cheapest possible producers, zero tariffing everything, and other shitty ideas from Brexiteers will not raise standards of living in the world, they will drive them down, here and abroad. Not for those on the top of the pile, those at the bottom will be the ones that suffer. It's about people, the structures I want are the ones that serve us all best.
As for a way of achieving it, I would prefer to use an open and honest pathway, but there are the ways that Nations have fostered Nationalism, but these create problems later on as we are seeing now, it creates a feeling of belonging, but also of exclusion or even exceptionalism from others. Do you think all of Britain was always united as one Nation? or even all of England? Why is a Scott and a Geordie born a few miles apart, less alike than the Geordie and me, born hundreds of miles apart?
You lot just think small, stuck within the lines on the map.

There has been a lot of talk of the elusive Brexit unicorn .. Its good to know a remainer also seeks one.

You want ever closer union but as much power as possible held locally .. brilliant. You also want greater equality yet support an organisation that is obsessed with drawing more and more power to the centre and assuming all the trappings of a superstate. Leading to the unequal sharing of misery when times are difficult. One example, trying to crow bar wildly diverged economies into a straight jacket, inevitably leading to problems ... see the Eurozone crisis (ongoing). This has exacerbated deprivation misery and suffering amongst the poorest. Eurozone countries took longer to recover from the 2008 crash than most other major countries. Rates of unemployment still very high in some of them. Enforced austerity on struggling countries like Greece. Obviously, countries like Germany sail serenely on unscathed. If its really is about people why have you such casual disregard for all the suffering directly linked to the EU trying to assume more and more power?

Speaking of being a tad blinkered .. It may have passed you by but numerous large and small nations manage to uphold good standards, workers rights and create wealth without being locked into a political project.

 

[GT49er]

You can't just look at something that has changed since the 70s and claim it is to do with the EU!

Your lot do it whenever you think it might suit your argument, Increased prosperity and peace for example, in the very post to which I was replying.

 

[Hampster Gull]

There has been a lot of talk of the elusive Brexit unicorn .. Its good to know a remainer also seeks one.

You want ever closer union but as much power as possible held locally .. brilliant. You also want greater equality yet support an organisation that is obsessed with drawing more and more power to the centre and assuming all the trappings of a superstate. Leading to the unequal sharing of misery when times are difficult. One example, trying to crow bar wildly diverged economies into a straight jacket, inevitably leading to problems ... see the Eurozone crisis (ongoing). This has exacerbated deprivation misery and suffering amongst the poorest. Eurozone countries took longer to recover from the 2008 crash than most other major countries. Rates of unemployment still very high in some of them. Enforced austerity on struggling countries like Greece. Obviously, countries like Germany sail serenely on unscathed. If its really is about people why have you such casual disregard for all the suffering directly linked to the EU trying to assume more and more power?

Speaking of being a tad blinkered .. It may have passed you by but numerous large and small nations manage to uphold good standards, workers rights and create wealth without being locked into a political project.

We of course weren’t part of the Euro, one of the many hard fought concessions which made the EU work for us.

On Greece, their government should never have used “statistics” to enter the Euro, they blagged their way in. And the people have been poorly treated but the economy was a joke. Until recently some people could retire at 50. Some 25% of pensioners are under the age of 55. They are a notorious society for avoiding taxes, through all spheres of life. And they spent money they didn’t have, which more often than not will catch up with you. They should never have joined the Euro

 

[Baldseagull]

What's wrong with that? Most people would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard Brexit.

Those that make the most noise seem to want to be further out than that, not me, close as possible and preferably in for me, but JCFG and Pastafarian keep telling me soft Brexit is not a real Brexit, a betrayal of the will of the people etc.

 

[WATFORD zero]

What's wrong with that? Most people would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard Brexit.

I agree with you but, on that basis, you could argue most people want to stay in the EU.

 

[melias shoes]

Those that make the most noise seem to want to be further out than that, not me, close as possible and preferably in for me, but JCFG and Pastafarian keep telling me soft Brexit is not a real Brexit, a betrayal of the will of the people etc.

That's exactly what it is.

 

[melias shoes]

I agree with you but, on that basis, you could argue most people want to stay in the EU.

Not at the referendum.

 

[Triggaaar]

I agree with you but, on that basis, you could argue most people want to stay in the EU.

What? No you can't, because most voters voted for Brexit.

 

[Triggaaar]

Those that make the most noise seem to want to be further out than that, not me, close as possible and preferably in for me, but JCFG and Pastafarian keep telling me soft Brexit is not a real Brexit, a betrayal of the will of the people etc.

If that's what they're saying, they're wrong. Just like this guy:

That's exactly what it is.

 

[Triggaaar]

I think you're right and most people would, I think the trouble is enough Tory MPs don't want that, so they would scupper the process.

There's been very little sensible talk about it in the media.

 

[pb21]

If that's what they're saying, they're wrong. Just like this guy:

Uh oh, you’ve only gone and done it.

You will now be brandished, by a select few, as an enemy of the people and forever be thought of as an unpatriotic and undemocratic saboteur.

 

[ManOfSussex]

More #projectfear by #remoaners and this time it's Kent Police at it.

The issue of Brexit and freight is of particular importance for us as a force as any issues that have a negative impact on the movement of freight in and out of Europe via the UK port of Dover or the Channel Tunnel would have a significant impact on the strategic road network and the policing of Kent.

https://www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/kent-police-warned-a2-m2-1852691

 

[nicko31]

Yet again the Brexiteers veneer thin knowledge is exposed...

 

[Baldseagull]

There has been a lot of talk of the elusive Brexit unicorn .. Its good to know a remainer also seeks one.

You want ever closer union but as much power as possible held locally .. brilliant. You also want greater equality yet support an organisation that is obsessed with drawing more and more power to the centre and assuming all the trappings of a superstate. Leading to the unequal sharing of misery when times are difficult. One example, trying to crow bar wildly diverged economies into a straight jacket, inevitably leading to problems ... see the Eurozone crisis (ongoing). This has exacerbated deprivation misery and suffering amongst the poorest. Eurozone countries took longer to recover from the 2008 crash than most other major countries. Rates of unemployment still very high in some of them. Enforced austerity on struggling countries like Greece. Obviously, countries like Germany sail serenely on unscathed. If its really is about people why have you such casual disregard for all the suffering directly linked to the EU trying to assume more and more power?

Speaking of being a tad blinkered .. It may have passed you by but numerous large and small nations manage to uphold good standards, workers rights and create wealth without being locked into a political project.

Yes, brilliant. There are some things dealt with best at a local level, some things better at a county level, some at National level and some at international level, why is that difficult to see?
I could poke holes in UK Government policies, no one thinks the answer is to leave the UK, (except half the Scotts) whether it is a good thing to have or be part of can't be judged just on the policies, which can be changed.
The Euro idea is not neccessarily a bad one, the conditions for entry were sensible, and then ignored for political reasons, because so few met the standard, definitely a bad decision. The US has a single currency, the economies of Hawaii and Mississippi are very different, and they manage, (probably due to being a proper federation).

 

[ManOfSussex]

Yet again the Brexiteers veneer thin knowledge is exposed...

View attachment 99402

Other than being a GP for over 20 years and Chair of the Commons Health Select Committee, what does the #remoaner and #expert Dr Sarah Wollaston MP know about it?

 

[Baldseagull]

If that's what they're saying, they're wrong. Just like this guy:

And herein lies the major flaw in the referendum, Leave could mean whatever you wanted it to, and in fact, having seen some of the targeted Facebook ads, it was deliberately argued for from all angles, some ads directly contradicting others.

 

[WATFORD zero]

What? No you can't, because most voters voted for Brexit.

2 and a bit years ago the majority voted for Brexit with no indication what that Brexit comprised of. That is a matter of Fact.

What follows is a matter of opinion.

You believe that 'Most people would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard Brexit'. I happen to agree with that, but there is no proof whatsoever. Same as I believe that now 'most people want to stay in the EU'.

You are using your judgement that most people would prefer a 'soft Brexit' as I am judging that most people want to stay in the EU. Neither of us have any factual evidence to back those claims.

Hard Brexiteers may rightly state that on the latest poll on NSC 'No deal' outnumbered a soft Brexit by 4 to 1. Equally, Staying in the EU outnumbered both leave options added together by more than 4 to 1

 

[Triggaaar]

And herein lies the major flaw in the referendum, Leave could mean whatever you wanted it to

I wouldn't say THE major flaw, it's just one of many flaws that are inherent in such a referendum.

And to be honest, it's not really a big flaw. Most people want us to leave - that's a fact, that's what people voted for. Sure, sure, those who aren't happy about that can argue that maybe people have changed their minds since then, but the way elections work in a democracy are that people vote on a date, and that's it. So that's point 1.

Point 2 is that most people would prefer a soft Brexit over a hard Brexit. I know that is the case, and it's not difficult to prove with very clear polling. So while Leave meant different things to different people, the facts are that the majority want to leave, and the majority would prefer a soft Brexit over a hard one.

Back to the inherent flaws, the government can't ask the people whether or not the detail of Leave is acceptable or not, because the EU might reject the proposal anyway. And if the government had to reach an agreement with the EU before putting it to the people, the EU (and likely our government too) would make the deal so crap that the people would inevitably reject it, meaning we stay in the EU (which is what our government and the EU want anyway).

But just because there are unavoidable flaws doesn't mean the people shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place.

 

[Triggaaar]

2 and a bit years ago the majority voted for Brexit with no indication what that Brexit comprised of.

Correct.

You believe that 'Most people would prefer a soft Brexit to a hard Brexit'. I happen to agree with that, but there is no proof whatsoever. Same as I believe that now 'most people want to stay in the EU'.

It's not the same at all. I gave an example with a poll on here a long time ago, and it's clear that people would prefer a soft Brexit than a hard one. It's not clear that people would want to stay in the EU, as the polls are pretty much the same now as before the referendum.