[Politics] Brexit

[The Rivet]

your deluded and a barefaced liar......like me

Well we'll join a lot of barefaced liars wont we?.................

 

[5ways]

We'll just ignore the £14bn we contributed to Ireland's bailout then ?

You appreciate that if Ireland went down it would have repercussions for us next door? And that we are raking in millions in interest payments?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

You appreciate that if Ireland goes down that may also have repercussions for us next door?

I do indeed but I was countering [MENTION=27210]jaghebby[/MENTION] 's lie that we didn't contribute to any bailout ..... we did ..... and there is nothing to stop us having to do so in the future.

 

[pastafarian]

Actually, you can't say that - we don't know. If we're not signing up to free movement of people, then the EU can impose whatever they like. Just because we didn't need visas 50 years ago doesn't mean we wouldn't need visas in two years time. The risk of having to apply for a visa to go on holiday in Europe is one of those little details that the Brexit camp doesn't want to highlight, funnily enough. But I don't imagine Vote Leave types will be too upset, seeing as how much they hate the EU. It's just the rest of us who will suffer....

Because its not a risk,its a ridiculous scare tactic

Think of all the countries that have 90 day visa free access to EU for holidays and business as laid out in EU law

here are some

Albania*, Andorra, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Bahamas, Barbados, Bosnia and Herzegovina*, Brunei Darussalam, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominica, El Salvador, East Timor, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), Grenada, Guatemala, Holy See, Honduras, Israel, Malaysia, Mauritius, Monaco, Montenegro*, Nicaragua, New Zealand, Palau, Panama, Paraguay, Saint Kitts and Nevis, San Marino, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saint Lucia, Samoa, Serbia*, Seychelles, Taiwan (passport bearing identity card number), Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, United Arab Emirates, Uruguay, and Vanuatu;
Australia, Brazil, United States, Japan, Mexico, Singapore, South Korea, Venezuela

these are reciprocal agreements.

Now think of all the EU countries that benefit from British Tourism and all those that visit Britain.(we are 2nd at visiting france by the way with 12 million visitors)

How do you think the EU will explain to its members(and not just the tourist industries) all the countries above are still ok with visa free access but we are going to slap restrictions on the Uk,one of our biggest customers.

Thats right its a ridiculous idea.

Post brexit you will still be able to go to france visa free or travel for business visa free in Europe,you can take that to the bank as they say.

 

[jaghebby]

Well we'll join a lot of barefaced liars wont we?.................

Well if the cap fits!

 

[5ways]

I do indeed but I was countering [MENTION=27210]jaghebby[/MENTION] 's lie that we didn't contribute to any bailout ..... we did ..... and there is nothing to stop us having to do so in the future.

Is that really a problem though? As I understand we don't contribute to EU bailouts directly. We also contribute funds to the IMF if it ever needs to bailout a country. We preserve the stability of the system and reap interest.

 

[The Rivet]

All anyone can say to that is tat the EU is not rotten, comparing it to Fifa is like apples to oranges.

Europe is not 'on the brink' but has actually returned to growth.

Eastern Europe and Hungary doesn't want refugees. Okay.

Poland is in a constitutional mess because the current government refuses to swear in judges appointed by the previous government. Then the constitutional court declared two laws from the Polish government unconstitutional. One required all judgement to have a two-thirds majority, rather than a simple majority, and increased the number of judges required to be present to pass a ruling. The Polish government however refused to publish the ruling made by the court, because "That the tribunal had not operated according to the dictates of the new law that it then found unconstitutional."http://www.vox.com/2016/6/1/11823742/poland-constitutional-crisis So it's a big mess and the Polish government is trampling on judicial sovereignty. The EU is putting pressure on Poland to stop the democratic backsliding. This is a good thing. I don't see how this can be a bad thing. The EU will always make democracy in Europe it's business. It's a good thing that Poland has a final recourse to undemocratic behaviour. Even if it is just moral pressure.

Scandinavian countries overwhelmed? Sweden has perhaps bitten off more than it can chew but they're not about to collapse. Denmark has taken a very different line, for example.

France is a perpetual mess but it's labour reforms are being pushed through. This is a good thing. Marie Le Pen soaring is a bad thing. She may get to the run-off but will very likely lose the presidential election.

Greece f**ked. Yes, but the new bail-out agreement is nearing completion so the worst is behind Greece.

Migrant crisis yes still bad. But at least there is a deal in place to divert the flow back to Turkey.

Schengen area still being enjoyed by 500 million people.

Unaccountable elites. Perhaps to a degree but if people simply paid attention they would be far more accountable. For a start by electing MEPs who do their jobs, not do nothing and collect their salaries while railing against the EU. See Ukip.

Europe will collapse without our money - no it won't.

All in all, some big problems but nothing insurmountable and nothing which justifies economic and political seppuku.

That's a matter of opinion. Appreciate the effort in response nonetheless. Fantastic effort.

 

[The Rivet]

Well if the cap fits!

Like Cameron and Osborne I could be convinced to be a barefaced liar.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Is that really a problem though? As I understand we don't contribute to EU bailouts directly. We also contribute funds to the IMF if it ever needs to bailout a country. We preserve the stability of the system and reap interest.

Yes actually, it is a problem. The IMF is an international agreement that you choose to join. We have chosen to NOT join the Euro, or to use the slang, the Eurozone. The Euro is fundamentally flawed and thus we shouldn't have to assist in bailing out it's members. We don't use the US dollar but would you object if we had to bailout any country that had linked it's currency to the US dollar - say one of the many South American countries that has done so ?

 

[GT49er]

All anyone can say to that is that the EU is not rotten, comparing it to Fifa is like apples to oranges.

Europe is not 'on the brink' but has actually returned to growth.

Eastern Europe and Hungary doesn't want refugees. Okay.

Poland is in a constitutional mess because the current government refuses to swear in judges appointed by the previous government. Then the constitutional court declared two laws from the Polish government unconstitutional. One required all judgement to have a two-thirds majority, rather than a simple majority, and increased the number of judges required to be present to pass a ruling. The Polish government however refused to publish the ruling made by the court, because "That the tribunal had not operated according to the dictates of the new law that it then found unconstitutional."http://www.vox.com/2016/6/1/11823742/poland-constitutional-crisis So it's a big mess and the Polish government is trampling on judicial sovereignty. The EU is putting pressure on Poland to stop the democratic backsliding. This is a good thing. I don't see how this can be a bad thing. The EU will always make democracy in Europe it's business. It's a good thing that Poland has a final recourse to undemocratic behaviour. Even if it is just moral pressure.

Scandinavian countries overwhelmed? Sweden has perhaps bitten off more than it can chew but they're not about to collapse. Denmark has taken a very different line, for example.

France is a perpetual mess but it's labour reforms are being pushed through. This is a good thing. Marie Le Pen soaring is a bad thing. She may get to the run-off but will very likely lose the presidential election.

Greece f**ked. Yes, but the new bail-out agreement is nearing completion so the worst is behind Greece.

Migrant crisis yes still bad. But at least there is a deal in place to divert the flow back to Turkey.

Schengen area still being enjoyed by 500 million people.

Unaccountable elites. Perhaps to a degree but if people simply paid attention they would be far more accountable. For a start by electing MEPs who do their jobs, not do nothing and collect their salaries while railing against the EU. See Ukip.

Europe will collapse without our money - no it won't.

All in all, some big problems but nothing insurmountable and nothing which justifies economic and political seppuku.

All anyone can say to that is that the EU is not rotten..............and you've just pointed out many ways that it is. I just don't want to be part of this fantasy vision that you seem convinced leads to the sunny uplands where rich people get richer and the poor know their place.



.....and I couldn't give a flying f*** what seppuku is. I expect we'll find out if we remain though.

 

[jaghebby]

I do indeed but I was countering [MENTION=27210]jaghebby[/MENTION] 's lie that we didn't contribute to any bailout ..... we did ..... and there is nothing to stop us having to do so in the future.

Well I didn't say we had'nt I just said we wouldn't have to there is a difference but perhaps you hadn't picked up that up! I think also the £14bn was'nt a direct bailout but was part of the money used to prop up Irish subsidiaries of the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyd's Banking Group so this is more to do with the global finanacial crash. The UK government also directly contributed £7bn as part of an international financial rescue. The UK Government judged that without a taxpayer injection the banks would have collapsed, with consequences for financial stability and people's money, and it judged that was an unacceptable risk to take. The Government was bailing out UK banks with global operations. Ireland was one international business, but not the only one!

 

[5ways]

All anyone can say to that is that the EU is not rotten..............and you've just pointed out many ways that it is. I just don't want to be part of this fantasy vision that you seem convinced leads to the sunny uplands where rich people get richer and the poor know their place.



.....and I couldn't give a flying f*** what seppuku is. I expect we'll find out if we remain though.

If you want to talk about fantasy vision let's take Brexiteer yes-means-no down-is-up rejection of 90% of received economic wisdom.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

Because its not a risk,its a ridiculous scare tactic

Think of all the countries that have 90 day visa free access to EU for holidays and business as laid out in EU law

here are some

Albania*, Andorra, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Bahamas, Barbados, Bosnia and Herzegovina*, Brunei Darussalam, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominica, El Salvador, East Timor, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), Grenada, Guatemala, Holy See, Honduras, Israel, Malaysia, Mauritius, Monaco, Montenegro*, Nicaragua, New Zealand, Palau, Panama, Paraguay, Saint Kitts and Nevis, San Marino, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Saint Lucia, Samoa, Serbia*, Seychelles, Taiwan (passport bearing identity card number), Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, United Arab Emirates, Uruguay, and Vanuatu;
Australia, Brazil, United States, Japan, Mexico, Singapore, South Korea, Venezuela

these are reciprocal agreements.

Now think of all the EU countries that benefit from British Tourism and all those that visit Britain.(we are 2nd at visiting france by the way with 12 million visitors)

How do you think the EU will explain to its members(and not just the tourist industries) all the countries above are still ok with visa free access but we are going to slap restrictions on the Uk,one of our biggest customers.

Thats right its a ridiculous idea.

Post brexit you will still be able to go to france visa free or travel for business visa free in Europe,you can take that to the bank as they say.

You're so one eyed it's untrue. Why don't you look at this from other side? What about if those 12 million people that would have gone to France on their holidays can't afford to anymore as the pound has sunk so low against the Euro? Leaving, say, 3 million who want to go France. That is 9 million holidays ruined off the back of a vote to give more powers to the House of Lords and the Queen. Those bastions of democracy.

 

[cunning fergus]

You're so one eyed it's untrue. Why don't you look at this from other side? What about if those 12 million people that would have gone to France on their holidays can't afford to anymore as the pound has sunk so low against the Euro? Leaving, say, 3 million who want to go France. That is 9 million holidays ruined off the back of a vote to give more powers to the House of Lords and the Queen. Those bastions of democracy.

Is it bollocks, they will go to Turkey or somewhere else like they did when going to European countries in the euro became too expensive, like it did some years ago. If only Greece or Italy could de-value they would go there.

The pound at any rate is over valued, it should fall, it would good for business (so great for Tories) and domestic holiday destinations.

Win win.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

Interestingly, Pastafarian makes an interesting point, he just presumes that after a Brexit vote everything will remain the same. The pound will stay strong against the Euro. People will happily still spend freely on their expensive holidays to foreign climes. But, wait, isn't even the Quitter camp admitting now that by Quitting the EU there will be a shock to the economy. That 12 million going to France becomes less. Why risk becoming one of those people? Why vote to make yourself poorer?

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

Is it bollocks, they will go to Turkey or somewhere else like they did when going to European countries in the euro became too expensive, like it did some years ago. If only Greece or Italy could de-value they would go there.

The pound at any rate is over valued, it should fall, it would good for business (so great for Tories) and domestic holiday destinations.

Win win.

I'm confused? Isn't Turkey dangerous and full of criminals who dream of coming here? And isn't Greece full of those nasty migrants that you Quitters are so quick to vilify? I am sure people would prefer to go to France and Spain, except they wouldn't be able to afford it as the pound had plummeted against the Euro and those that would still be able to afford to go would be stuck in the non-EU passport que.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

https://youtu.be/UTMxfAkxfQ0

definitely worth a watch.

The man who directed this's other highlights include: The Great Global Warming Swindle. Climate change denier. Nuff said.

 

[pastafarian]

Interestingly, Pastafarian makes an interesting point, he just presumes that after a Brexit vote everything will remain the same. The pound will stay strong against the Euro. People will happily still spend freely on their expensive holidays to foreign climes. But, wait, isn't even the Quitter camp admitting now that by Quitting the EU there will be a shock to the economy. That 12 million going to France becomes less. Why risk becoming one of those people? Why vote to make yourself poorer?

On the contrary,much will be different after a brexit,and for the better in my opinion.

on one point recently argued i just stated will will still regain visa free access for holidays and business trips,this has nothing to do with the rising or falling of the pound and where people choose to holiday.

but please tell me what additional powers will be given to the Queen after a brexit,and how would they negatively impact on our parliament

That is 9 million holidays ruined off the back of a vote to give more powers to the House of Lords and the Queen. Those bastions of democracy.

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

On the contrary,much will be different after a brexit,and for the better in my opinion.

on one point recently argued i just stated will will still regain visa free access for holidays and business trips,this has nothing to do with the rising or falling of the pound and where people choose to holiday.

but please tell me what additional powers will be given to the Queen after a brexit,and how would they negatively impact on our parliament

What doesn't have anything to do with the rising and falling of the pound? Quitting the EU? Of course it does. The pound sunk yesterday on the news that we might quit the EU. Having your 90 day visa free travel is only useful if people can still afford to go there.

It stands to reason that the unelected Queen and unelected Royal Family would have more influence on UK law, as after whatever law making is currently done in Brussels is brought back to UK, they would have sway over them through their private letters and words in politicians ears. See Prince Charles's letters for evidence.

 

[cunning fergus]

I'm confused? Isn't Turkey dangerous and full of criminals who dream of coming here? And isn't Greece full of those nasty migrants that you Quitters are so quick to vilify? I am sure people would prefer to go to France and Spain, except they wouldn't be able to afford it as the pound had plummeted against the Euro and those that would still be able to afford to go would be stuck in the non-EU passport que.

Fair play, it takes some balls to be honest about your mental state on this kind of thread, I wouldn't worry about it though your malaise is shared with other posters.........you are not alone.

Yes, relatively speaking Turkey is dangerous, it has a border with Syria, a longstanding internal terrorism problem and an authoritarian government. It is still a relatively poor country though and labour costs are low, so it stands to reason for a country with a population of 76m the number of Turks that would seek betterment and a more stable life would move if the opportunity arose would be significant.

It's why Turkey joining the EU is not a popular policy, but for the free market Tories the huge potential profit that can be drawn from more low cost of labour makes them get popcorn.

However, in relation to France and Spain a holiday to Turkey it is cheap. It's a similar dynamic to why people shop in Lidl and Aldi, it's a supermarket but cheaper. I'm sure people would prefer to shop at Waitrose, but that's life in the UK and EU for you.

The exchange rate between currencies fluctuates for many different reasons and people and business can benefit either way.......if it was going up some confused reactionaries would be moaning about the cost to businesses.