[Politics] Brexit

[Two Professors]

I see I'm not the only one with a postcard from HT and Watford Gap on their Balearics idyll.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Lots of bile being generated over EU 'threats' on the consequences of a no-deal Brexit. But what happens is that at 23.01 hours on 29th March 2018 we simply stop being a member of the EU - we become at this moment a 3rd party nation (such as, say, south Africa).

Given that we've spent the last 45 years or so becoming - reluctantly - closer enmeshed in EU Treaties, policies and procedures, it could be extremely unlikely to undertake this process without some disruption. If people point out this disruption they are not necessarily bullying, hectoring or scoring points.


It's just a case of Leavers being confronted with the logical consequences of their preferences.(And the rest of us picking up the tab.)

 

[Two Professors]

Lots of bile being generated over EU 'threats' on the consequences of a no-deal Brexit. But what happens is that at 23.01 hours on 29th March 2018 we simply stop being a member of the EU - we become at this moment a 3rd party nation (such as, say, south Africa).

Given that we've spent the last 45 years or so becoming - reluctantly - closer enmeshed in EU Treaties, policies and procedures, it could be extremely unlikely to undertake this process without some disruption. If people point out this disruption they are not necessarily bullying, hectoring or scoring points.


It's just a case of Leavers being confronted with the logical consequences of their preferences.(And the rest of us picking up the tab.)

As the majority of 'the rest of us' seem to be pensioners and the unemployed/unemployable not much chance of the tab being settled then!

 

[pb21]

Good to see arch brexiter Dominic Rabb getting behind the white paper on Marr this morning. Looks like his pragmatic approach will help push things on and hopefully ensure we avoid a no deal situation. I think it's been discussed before but I can envisage him being PM one day...

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Your post said about asking for their money back in 2068, so it appeared to be about money. I didn’t watch to clip of JRM.

Notwithstanding that, thank you for a courteous and considered response. Maybe if there was more like that on here the level of friction would be finished noticeably.

I only dip in and out of this thread as I find the adversarial nature and blinkered responses frustrating - I will include myself in that as I get annoyed by the constant comments from the Remain supporters that the Leavers are stupid, racist/xenophobic and old, and that we believed the £350m for the NHS statement etc. As you say, the reality is far more nuanced and, if everyone is honest, no one really knows how this will pan out.

Once we leave, there will be disruption. Most leavers expect that, but it will be short-term for most things. Other things may take longer to resolve. However, the leavers view things like parliamentary democracy as more important than some short-term disruption. That will be overcome and resolved. I accept that MPs leave a lot to be desired, but I actually have more confidence in the UK parliament to set legislation for the benefit of the UK than I do the technocrats in the EU who are not accountable.

The other issue which alienates the leave voters is that they don’t seem to accept that a number of people who may have noted to remain did so out of the fear from the remain campaign. They only seem to think that the leave side was at fault. If you read the link from my post a short while ago, the remain campaign/government has now been criticised by a cross-party committee.

Would you admit that there is a history of lies to the electorate from government/business on this subject of the EU/EURO? We’ve had threats about business moving away before and nothing happens both in regards the EURO and also if we voted to leave, not when we leave.

Thanks for this. I too have largely dipped out of contributing to this thread, like you worn down by the vitriolic name calling of certain posters. (I'm not saying that Remain-supporters are never out of line but I confess I haven't noticed the constant examples of Leavers being written off as old and stupid xenophobes. Perhaps we only see what we choose to see. Or perhaps I really am a lying, hypocritical and mentally defective weasel loon.)

On your specific point, you may have seen a post from me which accepted that some people would have voted Remain out of fear. That is clearly true. Some Remain campaigners, particularly the poor ones, particularly people like George Osborne, were far too gloomy in the predictions of the immediate consequences of a Leave vote, and some of their most extreme gloominess veered close to and perhaps beyond the point at which it could be described as simple lying.

Generally though, I regard the Remain campaign's gloominess about the immediate future as simply being the counterpoint of the Leave campaign's equally unrealistic jolliness (the easiest deal in history, we will soon be cracking deals with economies bigger than the EU, etc). You could have predicted these positions - Remain forecasting that Leave will damage the country and Leave forecasting it won't. It happened in the referendum campaign and it happened before - in the debate about the euro for example. It happens in every general election.)

Absolute, specific, provable, black & white lies seem to me to be something different altogether. In my opinion there were too many of these from the Leave campaign. In the final week of the campaign alone they were saying or strongly implying that families would be £200 a month better off, that Turkey and its muslims were about to join the EU and that the NHS would be privatised. (I am sure you are right when you say that you weren't taken in by the specific lie that Brexit will mean more money for the NHS, when, all things being equal, the opposite is true but the campaign director of Vote Leave says something different.)

I agree with you though that none of us really knows how this will pan out. I am sad that England - and, who knows, it may eventually be no more than England - has decided to go in the direction it has. I can do little more than stand and watch my country move away from me, and have conversations about it with my friends.

 

[larus]

Hopefully people will start to see Brexit MPs as the traitors they are.

How do you equate implementing the will of the people (i.e. the referendum and both main parties in the GE stated they would implement Brexit), with being a traitor?
[MENTION=12947]Lincoln Imp[/MENTION] - this is the type of crap which drives me to despair. How can there be a sensible debate when idiotic statements like this are here?

 

[portslade seagull]

Hopefully people will start to see Brexit MPs as the traitors they are.

How do you work that one out. Did mummy help

 

[Lincoln Imp]

How do you equate implementing the will of the people (i.e. the referendum and both main parties in the GE stated they would implement Brexit), with being a traitor?
[MENTION=12947]Lincoln Imp[/MENTION] - this is the type of crap which drives me to despair. How can there be a sensible debate when idiotic statements like this are here?

I don't see these people, whose motives I distrust, as traitors. I suppose that those standing against them - judges, parliamentarians and ordinary men and women - will respond in kind after months and years of being called collaborators, dissidents, enemies of the people and worse in the Brexit press and elsewhere.

 

[kevo]

How do you equate implementing the will of the people (i.e. the referendum and both main parties in the GE stated they would implement Brexit), with being a traitor?
[MENTION=12947]Lincoln Imp[/MENTION] - this is the type of crap which drives me to despair. How can there be a sensible debate when idiotic statements like this are here?

Thing is all current polls show that 'the will of the people', now people are better informed about the economic consequences of Brexit, is now to REMAIN in the EU. When does what people thought in 2016 become irrelevant?

 

[larus]

It is against all that Britain stands for. They manipulated the people during the vote and are now trying to carry it out for their own political gain regardless of if it harms the people or not.

So, in your mind the leave side lied and the Remain side told the truth?

Are you having a laugh or just being stupid?

 

[WATFORD zero]

I see I'm not the only one with a postcard from HT and Watford Gap on their Balearics idyll.

View attachment 98951

View attachment 98952

I was in the Adriatic the week before last, HT is in the Balearics this week. Probably the closest you've been to a correct answer on this thread though

 

[GT49er]

It is against all that Britain stands for.

No it isn't. It is however what Britain voted for.

They manipulated the people during the vote.

No they didn't - but do carry on. It's delightful to see someone making the remain side look petty and ridiculous!

 

[larus]

Thing is all current polls show that the will of the people, now people are better informed about the e onomix consequences of Brexit, is now to REMAIN in the EU. When does what people thought in 2016 become irrelevant?

OK, let’s follow your logic through (assuming that one or two polls supercedes a national vote with circa 34m people casting a vote).

If the polls change back to say people have changed their minds to want Remain, but then in 6 months time polls show that they have changed their mind a again back to leave, are you saying that we should then leave?

If not, why not? Do you believe in democracy, or just democracy which reflects your views?

Most intelligent people accept that we voted to leave.
Most intelligent people accept that it will be implemented.
There are differing views as to what remain means, but most people would accept that it encompasses:
End of free movement.
End of jurisdiction of the ECJ
Ability to negotiate own free trade deals.
Stopping large contributions to EU budget.

 

[WATFORD zero]

OK, let’s follow your logic through (assuming that one or two polls supercedes a national vote with circa 34m people casting a vote).

If the polls change back to say people have changed their minds to want Remain, but then in 6 months time polls show that they have changed their mind a again back to leave, are you saying that we should then leave?

If not, why not? Do you believe in democracy, or just democracy which reflects your views?

Most intelligent people accept that we voted to leave.
Most intelligent people accept that it will be implemented.
There are differing views as to what remain means, but most people would accept that it encompasses:
End of free movement.
End of jurisdiction of the ECJ
Ability to negotiate own free trade deals.
Stopping large contributions to EU budget.

Remain encompasses End of free movement, End of jurisdiction of the ECJ and Ability to negotiate own free trade deals ? It's just gibberish

Like most intelligent people believe it's possible to implement WTO rules and tariffs with no borders, customs posts, IT systems or staff ?

You just keep telling everyone what most intelligent people think

 

[larus]

Remain encompasses End of free movement, End of jurisdiction of the ECJ and Ability to negotiate own free trade deals ? It's just gibberish

Like most intelligent people believe it's possible to implement WTO rules and tariffs with no borders, customs posts, IT systems or staff ?

You just keep telling everyone what most intelligent people think

Very good. I typed remain and not leave. I know you bleat on about WTO, but we happen to trade with a lot of the world on WTO.

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Remain encompasses End of free movement, End of jurisdiction of the ECJ and Ability to negotiate own free trade deals ? It's just gibberish

Like most intelligent people believe it's possible to implement WTO rules and tariffs with no borders, customs posts, IT systems or staff ?

You just keep telling everyone what most intelligent people think

Most intelligent people voted remain.
Most of the others are hillbillies.

 

[Two Professors]

I was in the Adriatic the week before last, HT is in the Balearics this week. Probably the closest you've been to a correct answer on this thread though

Most intelligent people think you flounced away a week ago,and are a complete tosspot.Hope the Adriatic can recover soon from being polluted by you,probably the closest you haver been to coming clean.I hope you were looking to move their full time.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Most intelligent people think you flounced away a week ago,and are a complete tosspot.Hope the Adriatic can recover soon from being polluted by you,probably the closest you haver been to coming clean.I hope you were looking to move their full time.

Thoughts, larus?

 

[astralavi]

So Mogster said that benefits will not be felt for fifty years..how useful. By then we would have rejoined...such a waste

 

[larus]

Thoughts, larus?

Agreed, not helping the debate, but look at the post above his that he was replying to.

As children say “He started it Miss”.