[Politics] Brexit

[beorhthelm]

Don't give them facts, they know the EU is undemocratic because they keep saying so in the Sun and the Mail.

its undeomcratic because it upside down, EU parliament is the revision chamber. its like us being ruled by Lords rather than Commons. meanwhile the day to day executive is the appointed commission, with no members voted on by their home countries. but you know that and remainers are happy with that arrangement.

 

[beorhthelm]

How people can direct their ire towards Brussels while voting in government after government who represent the interests of themselves, their cronies, the banks and big business over the people who put the X in the box is beyond me.

Brexit or Remain.

Nothing is going to improve in politics while you are still voting these clowns into power.

well done, win prize for ironic post of the day.

 

[Questions]

Non Guardian readers beware

I think that filthy left wing rag the Guardian have got it about right.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

its undeomcratic because it upside down, EU parliament is the revision chamber. its like us being ruled by Lords rather than Commons. meanwhile the day to day executive is the appointed commission, with no members voted on by their home countries. but you know that and remainers are happy with that arrangement.

To Leavers/Euro-sceptics the Commission is indeed at the heart of the evil empire. It's no more (or less) democratic than any other civil service but without doubt it is more powerful than any other civil service and from its inception it has been charged with taking the EU forward - which inevitably means incursion into areas which previously had been the preserve of sovereign national governments. Had this not been the case it is probably that the EU would have faltered and simply 'stopped' - which of course would be great in the eyes of some but would render the whole project rather pointless.

If the EU has achieved anything positive it's probably, arguably mainly due to the Commission. Ditto the negatives. But it does kind of 'go with the supranational territory'. But one thing it isn't is bloated and huge. The size of the EU 'civil service' is tiny compared with those of national governments. And at least they didn't all go to Oxbridge, are not part of the UK Establishment and wanting to work to subvert The Will of The People (sorry: a different strain of slightly paranoid narrative crept in there).


One of the ironies of the Leaver position is that the only way they could inject more (direct) democracy into the EU's institutional arrangements would be either by having a directly elected President (which they would regards as something deeply sinister) or by bolstering the powers of the Parliament - a Parliament in which our UKIP friends fulfilled their democratic mandate by taking the money but effectively doing nothing. I'm not sure that we can take lessons on responsible democracy from that direction?

But sure: it's not everyone's cup of tea.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Prove them false. I'll give you 24 hours.

You're making out that not having to join the Euro was a concession to the UK. The truth is that no member of the EU at the time HAD to join the Euro, it was a choice. New members do now have to join. So being generous and calling it a consession, it was a consession to all members not a specific UK concession. In reality it wasn't a concession at all.

 

[cunning fergus]

I think that filthy left wing rag the Guardian have got it about right.

I think they are perpetuating the childish assumptions and petty politically driven point scoring that those seeking to overturn the 2016 Brexit vote are guilty of.

Labour’s biggest donor would support hard Brexit.

http://www.cityam.com/265806/labour-donor-has-labelled-jeremy-corbyns-brexit-stance

How would the Guardian describe him......

 

[BadFish]

And we’re still voting these clowns in (and I include the current potential Labour government in that) because we have a flawed political system that allows them power without forcing them to do anything remotely worthwhile for it. You can’t ask politicians to represent the people when there’s a voting system in place that represents only a tiny minority of our country.

Agreed.

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[BadFish]

well done, win prize for ironic post of the day.

Keep defending them boss, they will thank you for it........

Hardly surprising you are defending them I suppose, you have a similar sneering disregard for the opinions of the electorate.


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[Blue3]

its undeomcratic because it upside down, EU parliament is the revision chamber. its like us being ruled by Lords rather than Commons. meanwhile the day to day executive is the appointed commission, with no members voted on by their home countries. but you know that and remainers are happy with that arrangement.

It's exactly like here in the UK where unelected public servants negotiate plan write everything it then goes to ministers for approval and marketing

 

[seagull_special]

The referendum has been a toxic hateful self inflicted wound and put our country in a position where there is no winning outcome. As a dedicated remainer I was prepared to accept the result but the way it has been handled has been beyond abysmal and Boris Johnson and Michael Gove’s legacy will be a hamstrung country that will leak jobs and investment, find itself marginalized and incapable of negotiating an exit that benefits the country. The EU must be laughing their heads off as no other country could consider exit an excellent strategy. I believe we had more influence and power in a flawed system than out of it. There are tempestuous days ahead with no strong leadership options available.

 

[beorhthelm]

It's exactly like here in the UK where unelected public servants negotiate plan write everything it then goes to ministers for approval and marketing

ministers direct policy.

 

[beorhthelm]

Keep defending them boss, they will thank you for it........

Hardly surprising you are defending them I suppose, you have a similar sneering disregard for the opinions of the electorate.


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another post full of irony. i reckon you didnt get it, your earlier description could apply to Brussels who are led and lobbied by business and special interest groups far more than the interests of the European electorate. sneering disregard for electorates is an accusation usually aimed at the European leadership, ignoring public concerns across Europe over and over again.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

The referendum has been a toxic hateful self inflicted wound and put our country in a position where there is no winning outcome. As a dedicated remainer I was prepared to accept the result but the way it has been handled has been beyond abysmal and Boris Johnson and Michael Gove’s legacy will be a hamstrung country that will leak jobs and investment, find itself marginalized and incapable of negotiating an exit that benefits the country. The EU must be laughing their heads off as no other country could consider exit an excellent strategy. I believe we had more influence and power in a flawed system than out of it. There are tempestuous days ahead with no strong leadership options available.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of truth in this.

 

[beorhthelm]

well the second paragraph is about right.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Idiots voting for idiots keeps the merry-go-round.

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[Thunder Bolt]

To Leavers/Euro-sceptics the Commission is indeed at the heart of the evil empire. It's no more (or less) democratic than any other civil service but without doubt it is more powerful than any other civil service and from its inception it has been charged with taking the EU forward - which inevitably means incursion into areas which previously had been the preserve of sovereign national governments. Had this not been the case it is probably that the EU would have faltered and simply 'stopped' - which of course would be great in the eyes of some but would render the whole project rather pointless.

If the EU has achieved anything positive it's probably, arguably mainly due to the Commission. Ditto the negatives. But it does kind of 'go with the supranational territory'. But one thing it isn't is bloated and huge. The size of the EU 'civil service' is tiny compared with those of national governments. And at least they didn't all go to Oxbridge, are not part of the UK Establishment and wanting to work to subvert The Will of The People (sorry: a different strain of slightly paranoid narrative crept in there).


One of the ironies of the Leaver position is that the only way they could inject more (direct) democracy into the EU's institutional arrangements would be either by having a directly elected President (which they would regards as something deeply sinister) or by bolstering the powers of the Parliament - a Parliament in which our UKIP friends fulfilled their democratic mandate by taking the money but effectively doing nothing. I'm not sure that we can take lessons on responsible democracy from that direction?

But sure: it's not everyone's cup of tea.

Anybody who doesn't believe our Civil Service doesn't have a huge impact on everyday life has never watched Yes Minister.
I've met Keir Starmer several times when he was the head honcho of the Criminal Justice System, which has had savage cuts.

 

[Geestar]

He's coming home,
He's coming home,
Nigel's coming home!

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[goldstone]

If we had never joined the EU I wonder what kind of relationship we would have developed with the organisation?

 

[studio150]

I think they are perpetuating the childish assumptions and petty politically driven point scoring that those seeking to overturn the 2016 Brexit vote are guilty of.

Labour’s biggest donor would support hard Brexit.

http://www.cityam.com/265806/labour-donor-has-labelled-jeremy-corbyns-brexit-stance

How would the Guardian describe him......

Someone who is wealthy enough to not worry about the inflation rate increasing by at least 2.5% points if we moved to WTO terms with no increase in wages.

 

[Raskolnikov]

I really don't think this is an issue of Labour v Tory, Remain v Leave. I think BJ jumping ships just highlights what we already knew. They (DD and BJ) have not resigned in the interest of the people - that would have been done months ago, DD did not even resign when it was revealed that most of his work hasn't been done by him but a civil senior servant. This has been done for their own selfish egos, and that is what the Guardian is trying to call out here. I genuinely think that if this was a Labour government papers would be doing the same.

On a side note, this could be a perfect time to introduce (or once this mess has been sorted out) PR to make our election system more democratic and get genuine representation for the people. If we had some form of PR then this would not be a purely Tory ordeal, but rather a coalition (most likely Lab und Con if they'd allow that) where more views are represented, the 52% Lab and Con leavers and 48% Lab and Con remainers. Although, some form of Brexit cross party coalition should really have been considered, owing to the political and economic impact it is predicted to have on us