[Politics] Brexit

[cunning fergus]

Finally a post of yours that I agree with. [emoji23]

I’m sure normal service will be resumed soon enough.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Now I know you're on a wind up. There are 751 MEPs of which the UK have 73.]

More Brexitear mistruths TB, they can’t help themselves

 

[drew]

Think you're all jumping to false conclusions. DD and BJ have merely decided that being in the Government mean their hands are tied so by resigning they are now free to go to Russia for the world cup.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

How where we in a better position after the Lisbon treaty?

The new voting rules will take account of the weight of the different member states. So the UK, France and Germany will have greater voting rights in the European Council, where ministers make decisions.

A bill will require the support of 55% of the member states, representing at least 65% of the European population.

The so-called "majority rule" for Council decisions will be extended to more areas. That means quicker decisions and fewer blockages.

National parliaments will be able to challenge decisions that are the prerogative of member states. Under Lisbon, if one-third of the national parliaments agree on something, they can act together to oblige the Commission to cancel and review a wrong decision. They will also be able to refer the matter to the European Court of Justice.

 

[LlcoolJ]

You are hereHome > Britain > Faithless, craven and cowardly – the British government’s Brexit betrayal
Brexit Britain
FAITHLESS, CRAVEN AND COWARDLY – THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT’S BREXIT BETRAYAL
JULY 8, 2018 MELANIEBREXIT, EU, REMAINERS, THERESA
We don’t yet know whether Brexiteers in the Conservative party will seek to bring down the Prime Minister Theresa May over the UK negotiating position that she forced through Cabinet on Friday.

We don’t yet know whether the EU will accept her “compromise” package or will reject it with the contempt they have shown until now at any suggestion of a “pick and mix” approach to the EU’s customs union and rules.

But what we can say with near-certainty is that what Mrs May has done is put in serious doubt a Conservative victory at the next general election – and maybe at any further general election for a long time after that.

For she and her cowardly and faithless colleagues have betrayed Brexit voters, betrayed democracy and betrayed the British people.

In voting as they did on June 23 2016 to leave the EU, the British people made a solemn declaration of belief in the value of democratic sovereignty, national self-government and Britain regaining the power to decide its own laws, to conduct its own trade deals in the best interests of the country, and to rule itself once again with its own policies passed by its own parliament as the independent nation it once was.

Ever since that historic vote the Remainers – who by definition do not value democratic self-government and national sovereignty which they are all too happy to see subsumed under EU control – have sought every means possible to undermine and reverse the Brexit vote.

On Friday, they succeeded. This was a Remainer coup. Mrs May is insisting that her package would deliver Brexit. This is false.

It would leave the UK tied to a number of EU policies and thus unable to make policy in such areas for itself; it would destroy the UK’s ability to negotiate trade deals in the best interests of the nation; it would leave the UK still to some extent under the thumb of the European Court of Justice. Thus the UK would remain deprived of national sovereignty and the power to govern itself as an independent nation.

Moreover, Mrs May’s package would leave the UK in a worse position even than as a member of the EU. For under her terms, the UK would be bound by a number of EU rules and policies but with no say over them at all.

(Indeed, some Remainers fantasise that engineering just an outcome would fuel pressure for a second referendum and a vote to stay in – ignoring the fact that there can be no return to the status quo ante, since the triumphant EU would insist that, in order to remain, the bloodied UK would have to abolish the pound and join the Euro.)

Does Mrs May understand this? Is she Machiavelli in kitten heels – or is she just too narrow-minded, too incapable of grasping any big idea other than the survival of her government, too personally defensive, too psychologically clenched against viewpoints that challenge her own to be remotely competent?

The idea that problems such as the Northern Ireland border are otherwise simply insuperable is absurd. The fact remains that Britain held – and still holds – the major card in its own hands. The EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU.

That doesn’t mean there are no downsides from leaving: of course there are.

But a real leader would have said to the country something like this: “Look, there are going to be hiccups and problems and we may well have to bite on a few painful bullets. But the upside is that, overall, our economic future is very bright indeed if we make the cleanest possible break; and politically, we will once again be independent and in charge of our own laws and destiny. And for that most precious of all gifts we will pay a price if we have to, just as this country has always buckled down and paid a price for liberty – which is really what Britain is fundamentally all about”.

And to the EU, such a real leader would have said something like this: “The people of Britain have spoken and we are now leaving you. We will not seek a deal; we will take our chances with WTO rules and tariffs because even with all that we’ll still take you to the economic cleaners; but if you would like to offer us a deal, you’ll find our door is always open because we’ll always be your friends. Good bye!”

In the event, Mrs May’s negotiating position was beyond risible. She dismissed the innate strength of her country relative to the EU economic and political basket-case and instead – incredibly – approached the (possibly terminally) stricken Brussels behemoth as a nervous supplicant. Unsurprisingly, the EU promptly punched Britain in the solar plexus and is now preparing to kick it in the head.

As for the Brexiteers in Cabinet, they have all been revealed as beyond pathetic. According to media reports, as Friday’s marathon meeting wore on – after a brief, flailing and juvenile eruption by Boris Johnson – they all ended up supporting this appalling travesty.

It is hard to avoid the conclusion that they were all measuring their leadership ambitions against each other and so collectively were unable to present a united front. It was self-interest first, national interest last. Not one of them has resigned. “Friends” of Boris Johnson say he can do more to fight for Brexit by staying within Cabinet. Really? He has now put his name to Brexit’s betrayal. He will not be forgiven.

All these people have now shown themselves unworthy of leading their party.
They do not deserve to be in office; the Conservative party no longer deserves to be in government.

People are rightly worried that Jeremy Corbyn, Labour’s far-left leader, may become Prime Minister. That fear has helped Mrs May fight off any possible challengers. Jeremy Corbyn has been her human shield.

But here’s the thing. If the choice is to be between Mrs May’s Brexit betrayal and a Corbyn government, many may well now be thinking they’d either actually prefer Corbyn, who at least remains personally hostile to UK membership of the EU – or far more lethally, that there’s no longer much point in trying to stop him.

Because if Britain really is to remain tied to the EU, the UK parliament will increasingly become no more significant than Westminster regional council within the Brussels empire. So who cares if Corbyn becomes Prime Minister, this thinking would go, since the EU won’t let him do half of what he wants to do anyway?

And that’s the worst danger of all from this debacle: that the British people will simply lose faith not just in the wretched Conservative party but in the democratic process which will become increasingly meaningless.

That said, this thing is far from over; indeed, it may have only just begun. For if the EU sticks to its previous intransigence, it will reject the British government’s offer and insist that it makes further concessions to the EU’s rules which even Mrs May dare not make.

Which means, prepare now for “no deal”. Which Britain should have done right from the start.

But however this finally ends, Mrs May and her craven colleagues have done real damage – to themselves as politicians, to the Conservative party and to democracy itself

Below is dear old Melanie’s latest tweet.


I’ve said it before: draft Farage. Sack May, give Farage a peerage, make him party leader and PM – at least until UK really does properly leave the EU.
Too fanciful? Desperate times need desperate measures; public faith in democratic process now in danger

Marvellous , the certifiably bonkers Melanie Phillips take on things.

Do people actually read stuff like that and think. Hmmm, yeah good points Melanie. Well, clearly they do otherwise we wouldn't be in this hellish mess. It's mind boggling and would be funny, but......

 

[Billy the Fish]

Now I know you're on a wind up. There are 751 MEPs of which the UK have 73.

This explains how the European Parliament works. It's not just MEPs but each head of state as well.

[tweet]1002591845812244481[/tweet]

I said 800ish, I didn't know the exact amount but chose not to Google it, I think you'll agree I'm in the right ballpark.

I'm talking about the MEPs that you and I vote for, there are 10 MEPs for the South East.

I'll ask again which voting bloc do they belong to and which blocs for the European Parliament do you support?

 

[Hampster Gull]

They don't need to. If Corbyn changes his stance I will be pleased but I don't see it happening. He will have to do one of two things. He will either have to compromise over his old labour issues with the EU (unthinkable) in order to avoid a 'default' hard Brexit, or he will have to find some way of stopping Brexit (by election manifesto would be easiest, and if not that then a second referendum). I don't see any of this even beng coherently promised, let alone effectvely actioned if they get in.

They want power, it’s irresistible to a political party. They win by being less incompetent than the Tories (not hard). They won’t get in promising a hard Brexit so they will go softly softly and I think they would run on that. Corbyn doesn’t have to lead them to the next election, if they can touch power they will pick whoever best serves.

 

[Herr Ing Gull]

Will he still be lying ?

Corrected for you.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Agree a long shot. But it’s a few steps closer after these two left. It’s a party that doesn’t act like one. Reminds me of the dying days of the Thatcher empire. But you’re right, they might be able to keep limping along. The longer that goes on the more their political brand gets trashed. Their choice

Indeed, limping along sniping at each other moving ever closer to the exit point but not willing to relinquish power. The Eu frustrated while not having anyone credible to negotiate with. Quite possible and could mean we leave with no deal.

 

[GT49er]

OK I now see what you mean. But building an edifice using Gina Miller as the foundations doesn't make it real. John Major had his '********' undermining his position (anti EU as it happens). I see no evidence of much opposition to May, even from Labour, let among her own party. To imagine you see a labarynthine conspiracy of treasonous proportions seems a little peyote-inspired to me. The reason the brexit bus is broke is because it was never roadworthy. It doesn't need the Man from Uncle, Department S and the A team to sabotage

Gina Miller isn't a foundation for any sort of edifice - I was just using the awful woman as evidence of double-speak. Half of May's own party are anti-Brexit, ffs. The Whole Political establishment in this country was shocked and outraged by people voting to leave the EU - and they will try anything to overturn the referendum. Do you seriously think otherwise? I mean, seriously - come on! Get real, and admit what's happening, even if you personally would love to see the referendum reversed too. (I can accept that view, even if I disagree with it, but I cannot accept the ridiculous denial that the full force of the political establishment is up to its neck in trying to hinder/delay/stop Brexit.)
And forget all that Department S, A team carp - it's real government departments involved, not fantasy organisations.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Indeed, limping along sniping at each other moving ever closer to the exit point but not willing to relinquish power. The Eu frustrated while not having anyone credible to negotiate with. Quite possible and could mean we leave with no deal.

That is a possible scenario. But another is they keep limping on, not wanting the public backlash which would mean relinquishing power for what could be the next ten year or so. In doing so they enable Parliament to support a waterdown May scenario (whose kidding if they think the EU won’t water this down), as the majority is soft Brexit not hard Brexit.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I said 800ish, I didn't know the exact amount but chose not to Google it, I think you'll agree I'm in the right ballpark.

I'm talking about the MEPs that you and I vote for, there are 10 MEPs for the South East.

I'll ask again which voting bloc do they belong to and which blocs for the European Parliament do you support?

You can't just pick and choose your statistics. You said we only had 10 MEPs, when we have 73. That's almost a tenth of the European Parliament out of 28 countries.
Yes Socialists and Democrats will tend to stick together but when it comes to voting for something the UK doesn't want, then that is also negotiated by the heads of states, as well.

 

[Weststander]

She's a "nasty piece of work" to keep the Boris theme going.

A friend of mine used to be a producer on Sky News. Let's just say that nobody he worked with had a very high opinion of her. Other presenters included.

When there's an 'event' on, my wife refuses to have Sky News on because of Burley. I prefer Sky to take the piss out of Burley's narcissism.

Outside one court case Burley had a with a female paparazzi, resulting in a black eye.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pictured-the-incredible-moment-sky-tv-presenter-kay-burley-grabbed-a-rival-by-the-throat-6859129.html

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They want power, it’s irresistible to a political party. They win by being less incompetent than the Tories (not hard). They won’t get in promising a hard Brexit so they will go softly softly and I think they would run on that. Corbyn doesn’t have to lead them to the next election, if they can touch power they will pick whoever best serves.

I agree with all that. But the caveats are these. We need to have a general election before the Brexit clocks stops ticking or it will be too late. That means the conservatives calling an early election.....that will only happen if she is forced out by her own party (not much sign of that now - despite my early evening spasm of missplaced optmism). The other is this. I actually think that Corbyn is a principled old gentleman (in that he makes his choices on the basis of perceived principle - wrong and bad though these decisions sometimes may be) who has no desire to manipulate his stance to curry votes. I am not saying he never prevaricates by the way, and he gets very pissy and defensive when put on the spot. But cunning strategising to win, a la Mandleson and Blair, is just not Corbyn.

 

[Blue3]

Boris now jumps ship, Hardly jumps ship he was and still is on the on ship Boris and I fear for Boris it's sinking

 

[Super Steve Earle]

I hate to break it to you but it’s been turning for some time now and Todays probably the half way mark. Whether it goes any further and we sail off on 270 degrees into neither here nor there lands remains to be seen. But I think it’s the most likely, a compromise that everyone’s unhappy with.

I only said it for comedy value but, I must admit I deal with a wide cross section of people of all types and the remainers have been virtually non-existent. My impression is that they are a noisy minority but, of course, that's a given because they need to try and change the will of the majority. I don't see any significant evidence of turning at all.

 

[Hampster Gull]

I agree with all that. But the caveats are these. We need to have a general election before the Brexit clocks stops ticking or it will be too late. That means the conservatives calling an early election.....that will only happen if she is forced out by her own party (not much sign of that now - despite my early evening spasm of missplaced optmism). The other is this. I actually think that Corbyn is a principled old gentleman (in that he makes his choices on the basis of perceived principle - wrong and bad though these decisions sometimes may be) who has no desire to manipulate his stance to curry votes. I am not saying he never prevaricates by the way, and he gets very pissy and defensive when put on the spot. But cunning strategising to win, a la Mandleson and Blair, is just not Corbyn.

Agree on Corbyn, but he is there because of the union barons. Len McCluskey is one who (probably rightly) sees Brexit as a right wing plot. "These people see in Brexit the chance to turn Britain into the low-wage, deregulated, race-to-the-bottom society of their dreams.” He wants in. Lots to play for.

 

[cirC]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ne...or-the-EU-referendum-vote-will-look-like.html

No mention of soft,hard or any other form of brexit just do you wish to remain in or leave the EU.
I seem to remember that leave had the most votes.As in a parliamentary election most votes gets the win whether you like it or not.A can of worms,(the future of this countries democracy is the issue),is about to be opened and the outcome of that is any ones guess.Be careful what you wish for,it may turn out to be the end of this nations freedom to have a say!

 

[beorhthelm]

Treaties have to be agreed. Each time there has been a treaty, we've come out of it in a better position.

i cant take you seriously, each treaty devolves more power, more integration with the EU. if you are remainer that is what you are surely in favour of, but want to claim the deeper ties dont exist?

 

[portlock seagull]

I only said it for comedy value but, I must admit I deal with a wide cross section of people of all types and the remainers have been virtually non-existent. My impression is that they are a noisy minority but, of course, that's a given because they need to try and change the will of the majority. I don't see any significant evidence of turning at all.

I just think we’re a listless ship in need of a captain because we’re just going, well, nobody knows. Let’s just hope the world isn’t flat!