[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

Still In denial I see. (You do know we only have 9 months)

Even JCFG has given up on that one

Cant help but notice you are someone who would greatly benefit from looking up the definitions of the words possible and probable.

 

[pastafarian]

Surely this is what many of us on this side of the argument have been saying for months, while those on yours have argued that the vast majority of Leave voters were forcused on Brexit-specific issues such as customs unions, judicial sovereignty and the rest. Indeed, I recall Pasta claiming that every Leave voter of his acquaintance voted according to such lofty considerations.

Hardly a single soul, according to this narrative, voted simply because they wanted to give the elite a whack. Nothing to do with Europe. Last year we spent a weekend in Barnsley and our host, a sober Barnsley born-and-bred 70-year-old, explained that wanting to give the far-away elite two fingers was exactly the mood of that hard-pressed town on referendum day. If they were given another chance to do the same to Westminster, or even the county council, the result would have been the same. This was decried as rubbish by Brexiteers - including, I think, you - because I hadn't spoken to everyone in Barnsley.

It's an important point though, because if what you say about this in your post above is correct then the fairest reflection of British public opinion - taking into account that virtually half the voters voted for no Brexit at all and many of those who voted Leave did so simply because they were frustrated (your word) with their lot - would appear to be the mildest form of departure. Norway perhaps, or perhaps even milder than that.

At it again Pinocchio i see.

 

[Berty23]

You are now talking about the process, not the principles. Is not being prepared to walk away from a negotiation a sensible stance? Why can't the UK thrive and prosper as an Independent nation state like numerous other nations with less democratic, economic , military, clout/authority?

Those countries were not trying to leave the largest trading block ever. Our whole country is set up to work within the EU e.g. Customs and laws. To think that we can leave and become a third country with the customs union and not collapse is fanciful. Every single lorry would face customs checks. Our ferry ports would grind to a halt in hours. That overlooks all of the other issues with the agencies I mentioned.

Talking positively about something does not make it appear by magic.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Numerous plastic socialists who sided with/were fooled by Gideon and Goldmann Sachs still parroting the corporate big business line I see.

To be honest, this isn't one of your better slices of insight.

 

[Garry Nelson's teacher]

Surely this is what many of us on this side of the argument have been saying for months, while those on yours have argued that the vast majority of Leave voters were forcused on Brexit-specific issues such as customs unions, judicial sovereignty and the rest. Indeed, I recall Pasta claiming that every Leave voter of his acquaintance voted according to such lofty considerations.

Hardly a single soul, according to this narrative, voted simply because they wanted to give the elite a whack. Nothing to do with Europe. Last year we spent a weekend in Barnsley and our host, a sober Barnsley born-and-bred 70-year-old, explained that wanting to give the far-away elite two fingers was exactly the mood of that hard-pressed town on referendum day. If they were given another chance to do the same to Westminster, or even the county council, the result would have been the same. This was decried as rubbish by Brexiteers - including, I think, you - because I hadn't spoken to everyone in Barnsley.

It's an important point though, because if what you say about this in your post above is correct then the fairest reflection of British public opinion - taking into account that virtually half the voters voted for no Brexit at all and many of those who voted Leave did so simply because they were frustrated (your word) with their lot - would appear to be the mildest form of departure. Norway perhaps, or perhaps even milder than that.

Good stuff. The Leaver camp is rather too fond of the rhetorical trick of dressing up alienation as principle and then blaming it all on metropolitan elites. It's a kind of second cousin to conspiracy theory, and then it's extended by convenient proxy to anyone who supports Remain and is the possessor of an A level. Among other things it's a bit lazy; not an 'inconvenient truth' but a 'too convenient fiction'.

 

[mikeyjh]

I know, this Rolls Royce thing has nothing to do with Brexit. It's after five successive profit warning so they are trimming down on middle management.
The article below is from 2015
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33405942

It's correct that we call out the facts here, (I say this as a vocal remainer), Rolls Royce job cuts is naff all to to with Brexit, there are a couple of things to remember here 1) It's only 3 months since they broke ground on a new £100m test bed in Derby 2) None of the jobs are engineering roles, they're all in support services. If there's a grain of good news for Derby, it's that they're continue to build more aero and marine engines. The engineering jobs are where the money is and also, of course, it has a massive impact on the supply chain in the area.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Most definitely. I know one thing, democracy will be well and truly broken if we don't leave the EU fully. There will be a lot of angry people out there. As if the general public need any more reasons not to trust politicians, this will be the icing on the cake.

I'm disgusted with the Remainer politicians, ex politicians, millionaires, billionaires who have tried and are still trying to disrupt this process. I'm pissed off with the constant negativity, doom and gloom forecasts. This country needs something new, Brexit would offer that.

How do we move on, if we don't actually leave at the end of all this, I don't know. I know one thing those who voted Leave would have been well and truly screwed.

Obviously Theresa May hasn't done what you want, so can you explain at which points you would have done things differently?

(Saying 'just get on with it' or 'no deal' without explaining how you would implement it is simply proof that you don't understand what you are talking about).

So the floor is yours - where were the major points you would have done things differently?

I do appreciate you taking your time over the response to ensure that you've thought this through fully. After all, you don't strike me as the sort of person who would jump in two feet first without considering the implications of what you are about to do. And I also understand that it can be a quite a complex subject and needs to be thought through.

Just wondering if, rather like the Government's white paper on trade, there is any chance of an ETA on your response

 

[portslade seagull]

It's correct that we call out the facts here, (I say this as a vocal remainer), Rolls Royce job cuts is naff all to to with Brexit, there are a couple of things to remember here 1) It's only 3 months since they broke ground on a new £100m test bed in Derby 2) None of the jobs are engineering roles, they're all in support services. If there's a grain of good news for Derby, it's that they're continue to build more aero and marine engines. The engineering jobs are where the money is and also, of course, it has a massive impact on the supply chain in the area.

Thanks for that Mikey. Maybe a few apologies from the more vocal remainers wouldn't be amiss on this point. I doubt I'll receive any though

 

[ManOfSussex]

Thanks for that Mikey. Maybe a few apologies from the more vocal remainers wouldn't be amiss on this point. I doubt I'll receive any though

HT originally posted the Rolls Royce jobs news. Other than that who linked it to Brexit to warrant apologising to you?

(Careful up there on your high horse, it can be a long way down )

 

[astralavi]

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Surely this is what many of us on this side of the argument have been saying for months, while those on yours have argued that the vast majority of Leave voters were forcused on Brexit-specific issues such as customs unions, judicial sovereignty and the rest. Indeed, I recall Pasta claiming that every Leave voter of his acquaintance voted according to such lofty considerations.

Hardly a single soul, according to this narrative, voted simply because they wanted to give the elite a whack. Nothing to do with Europe. Last year we spent a weekend in Barnsley and our host, a sober Barnsley born-and-bred 70-year-old, explained that wanting to give the far-away elite two fingers was exactly the mood of that hard-pressed town on referendum day. If they were given another chance to do the same to Westminster, or even the county council, the result would have been the same. This was decried as rubbish by Brexiteers - including, I think, you - because I hadn't spoken to everyone in Barnsley.

It's an important point though, because if what you say about this in your post above is correct then the fairest reflection of British public opinion - taking into account that virtually half the voters voted for no Brexit at all and many of those who voted Leave did so simply because they were frustrated (your word) with their lot - would appear to be the mildest form of departure. Norway perhaps, or perhaps even milder than that.

The vast majority of leave voters were motivated mainly by Brexit specific issues (taking back control/immigration), see numerous polls. No one, as far as I am aware has ever said giving the powers that be a kicking wasn't a factor for some. Issues are overlapping. Giving the elites a whack about continually ignoring concerns on immigration was also a Brexit issue. It's ok for you and others remainers to claim lofty considerations but not for Leave voters?

Exaggerating a point to misrepresent an argument is tiresome and disingenuous. Yes you claimed some bloke you met in Barnsley had one reason for voting and was therefore representative of an entire town because he told you so. Compelling evidence. Numerous polls and surveys asking thousands of leave voters for their reasons possibly more representative and convincing in my view.

I doubt leave voters who were partially or mainly motivated by giving the Remain establishment a kick, would welcome remainers telling them what sort of Brexit would be best for them. In case you missed it Parliament has already voted down the EEA/Norway type option .. by a huge majority.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

To be honest, this isn't one of your better slices of insight.

It wasn't meant to be! More /

 

[Mo Gosfield]

The vast majority of leave voters were motivated mainly by Brexit specific issues (taking back control/immigration), see numerous polls. No one, as far as I am aware has ever said giving the powers that be a kicking wasn't a factor for some. Issues are overlapping. Giving the elites a whack about continually ignoring concerns on immigration was also a Brexit issue. It's ok for you and others remainers to claim lofty considerations but not for Leave voters?

What lofty considerations? Don't fall for that. Those that voted Remain are just as guilty of ignorance and disinterest. Both sides singularly failed to recognise how our country is changing. The level of greed and self-interest above and beyond thoughts of national good is staggering. The levels of pomposity on this forum defy belief.
As individuals we have failed our nation. We have allowed politicians to destroy our future by betraying our children. We cannot pass on the mantle because we have allowed our children to de-intellectualize. They are now intellectually bankrupt. Many incapable of deep thought. It is a superficial society now built around the individual and materialism. Multi-culturalism has failed.
Don't waste time listening to the protestations of those who purport to support membership of a union built around elitism and self-interest and one that is entirely unsuitable for our needs. They were brainwashed years ago. And don't listen to any Brexiteer who cites immigration and getting our borders back, as a reason for wanting to Leave. That horse bolted years ago and these people were stupid enough to keep voting in a morally corrupt regime that has now given us ghettoes, social divide, civil unrest and ill-educated kids. What a great legacy.

 

[astralavi]

The vast majority of leave voters were motivated mainly by Brexit specific issues (taking back control/immigration), see numerous polls. No one, as far as I am aware has ever said giving the powers that be a kicking wasn't a factor for some. Issues are overlapping. Giving the elites a whack about continually ignoring concerns on immigration was also a Brexit issue. It's ok for you and others remainers to claim lofty considerations but not for Leave voters?

Exaggerating a point to misrepresent an argument is tiresome and disingenuous. Yes you claimed some bloke you met in Barnsley had one reason for voting and was therefore representative of an entire town because he told you so. Compelling evidence. Numerous polls and surveys asking thousands of leave voters for their reasons possibly more representative and convincing in my view.

I doubt leave voters who were partially or mainly motivated by giving the Remain establishment a kick, would welcome remainers telling them what sort of Brexit would be best for them. In case you missed it Parliament has already voted down the EEA/Norway type option .. by a huge majority.

Not much focus on the austerity policies from leavers, lots of people are surprised that schools hospitals police are cut when there is a Tory government. Austerity is the root of all of this. Without the banking crisis we would not be here. The most staunch advocates of austerity and rolling back the state are those that iniated and pushed for leave. This is a vote for the elite you can call that democracy.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

At it again Pinocchio i see.

You feel you can get away with calling me a liar because you don't think I can be fagged to scroll back though 18 months of posts to prove I'm not. In that respect you are correct.

Perhaps you were advised by your 50-odd pro-Brexit American acquaintances.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Not much focus on the austerity policies from leavers, lots of people are surprised that schools hospitals police are cut when there is a Tory government. Austerity is the root of all of this. Without the banking crisis we would not be here. The most staunch advocates of austerity and rolling back the state are those that iniated and pushed for leave. This is a vote for the elite you can call that democracy.

I think you are partially right but for the wrong reasons. The banking crisis and its aftermath showed the average punter that those that cause the problems mainly get away without it while the rest of us pay a heavy price. The very same people that caused the crisis were telling the electorate to vote remain. The high priest of austerity George Osborne told the electorate to vote remain. This might be an uncomfortable truth for many remainers on here but pretending a vote to leave was a vote for the elites is laughably/woefully untrue.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Thanks for that Mikey. Maybe a few apologies from the more vocal remainers wouldn't be amiss on this point. I doubt I'll receive any though

Should I ever have something to apologise about I’ll PM you

 

[portslade seagull]

Should I ever have something to apologise about I’ll PM you

To be fair it wasn't aimed at you.

 

[astralavi]

I think you are partially right but for the wrong reasons. The banking crisis and its aftermath showed the average punter that those that cause the problems mainly get away without it while the rest of us pay a heavy price. The very same people that caused the crisis were telling the electorate to vote remain. The high priest of austerity George Osborne told the electorate to vote remain. This might be an uncomfortable truth for many remainers on here but pretending a vote to leave was a vote for the elites is laughably/woefully untrue.

The average punter voted for a policies of extreme austerity. This suits the free market minimal state model supported by the tory elite.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

To be fair it wasn't aimed at you.