beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,015
"people like you"? who am i other than a member of the public. the government and EU who have been unable to negotiate a amicable agreement.
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[Politics] Brexit
- Thread starter KingstonSeagull
- Start date
"people like you"? who am i other than a member of the public. the government and EU who have been unable to negotiate a amicable agreement.
Albumen
Don't wait for me!
I’m amazed you expected any different. Negotiating leaving a club where the membership hold 90% of the hand was never going to be an easy thing, or a sensible one. Bending over backwards to appease people who are too stubborn to hold their hands up and say OK maybe we were wrong is what we’re seeing. It’s utterly pathetic, and an embarrassment. It will continue for another 3 months until we vote on the final deal. Hopefully one choice will be ‘actually, you know what, immigrants aren’t that bad’. X
Baldseagull
Well-known member
A vote on the withdrawal deal?
Knock yourself out
View attachment 97453
Considering leavers on here have already said campaigning to rejoin after we have left (respecting the democratic vote) is the correct democratic path, you wont find leavers with any problems about that process.
I suspect though people would have hoped by then you could just focus on the campaigning part and might have, by then, got to grips with the decision to leave and finally dropped the “constantly bitching and complaining” bit.
But thanks for the heads up you intend to carry on with that.
A test for suffrage? F### Off Goebbels.
Whilst you continue to have conversations with yourself, it should be noted your frustration that you received a lack of attention (over an astonishing 4 pages), is more to do with the fact no one has understood a word that you have been prattling on about for months.
You have been 2+2=Fish for ages.
So what? Perhaps you can explain why, if you decided to vote to leave, a decision to move to another country now or in the future must, according to your Lilliputian mind group-think, be frowned upon and should even be be refused.
Are you really this insular?
No doubt whenthe government decides to revoke Article 50 you will all, along with Gina cry foul and demand, via another court case, that the government cant revoke Article 50 at all and that Parliament must do it.
I wonder if the judge will point out that in a previous court case that Gina had in the Supreme Court, Gina had agreed (which no doubt you remainers agreed with as well) with the premise contained in the ruling judgement that said
“notice under article 50(2) (which we shall call 'Notice') cannot be given in qualified or conditional terms and that, once given, it cannot be withdrawn”
“It follows from this that once the United Kingdom gives Notice, it will inevitably cease at a later date to be a member of the European Union and a party to the EU Treaties.”
Why didn’t you say something before that you were on a blocking frenzy, you’ve missed an opportunity to go on about it……….and on and on and on and on
If rejoining in the future could be guaranteed to be on at least as good terms as we currently have, I would be less concerned about actually leaving so we can all see how that pans out, unfortunately, it is far more likely that if we are permitted to rejoin, it would be without the rebate and without some of the power of veto we currently have. I believe that rejoining is highly likely, so to go through the pain of the withdrawal to end up back in on worse terms is daft.
In the referendum with the choices you have provided, would you vote to leave without an agreement, if the agreement included payments to the EU and a customs union?
beorhthelm
A. Virgo, Football Genius
- Jul 21, 2003
- 36,015
i naively expected those selling it had a plan, a strategy to take to negotiation, knowing the EU would play hard. shirely thats not unreasonable, they've been wanting this for at least 25 years since Maastricht, right? turns out even the threat of leaving without an agreement wasnt credible as they dont know how to deliver on that.
i naively expected those selling it had a plan, a strategy to take to negotiation, knowing the EU would play hard. shirely thats not unreasonable, they've been wanting this for at least 25 years since Maastricht, right? turns out even the threat of leaving without an agreement wasnt credible as they dont know how to deliver on that.
So you are a regretful leaver? No shame in that. Yes, the leave case was miss sold. Personally I never bought it...too many transparent lies.
Baldseagull
Well-known member
i naively expected those selling it had a plan, a strategy to take to negotiation, knowing the EU would play hard. shirely thats not unreasonable, they've been wanting this for at least 25 years since Maastricht, right? turns out even the threat of leaving without an agreement wasnt credible as they dont know how to deliver on that.
I feel for you man, you must feel how I felt a few years after voting for Blair.
Mental Lental
Well-known member
Corbyn's actually starting to get on my wick with his wishy-washy non-committal Brexit policy. He's at the stage now where he's really gonna have to nail his flag to a particular side but he thinks he can just ride the Tory shit river all the way to the next election. He's just announced this amazingly crap impossible Goldilocks position on Brexit cos he knows he won't be in power until after B-day and will never have to actually try and wring this concession out of the EU himself.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44377072
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44377072
The reality of leaving looks like it might be about to start biting. Hold tight. I assume those who work in car manufacturing read about the country of origin laws before voting leave so knew what they were voting for?
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/euro...-of-brexit-11395908?__twitter_impression=true
https://news.sky.com/story/amp/euro...-of-brexit-11395908?__twitter_impression=true
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
Unfortunately those rules weren't written on the side of a bus
Garry Nelson's teacher
Well-known member
Here's a very simple observation.
1. The hard Brexiteers are getting het up about any soft Brexit that ends up with us being a 'rule-taker'. Fair enough.
2. A hard Brexit would involve us defaulting to 'WTO rules'. Has none of them, er, noticed i.e. that word 'rules' features rather prominently in this arrangement?
3, The hard Brexiteers have spent the last 50 years moaning (and these are world class moaners, not like some of us on this thread who are mere amateurs) about how undemocratic the are 'rule-making' processes of the EU - with its QMV, direct elections to the Parliament and other such nasty little European tricks designed solely to deprive the mighty UK of its sovereign status and design a Brussel's gravy train of immense size and global pretensions
4. How do they think the WTO works? Can you just pick the rules you want? Can we - the great British public - vote them out? Will we like all the rules?
There is in the Hard Brexit view of the world just a touch of arrogance (which is kind of quaint) that 'we' can bestride the trade world like a Colossus, picking and choosing deals and partners. If they don't play ball I guess we could always send a gun-boat.
1. The hard Brexiteers are getting het up about any soft Brexit that ends up with us being a 'rule-taker'. Fair enough.
2. A hard Brexit would involve us defaulting to 'WTO rules'. Has none of them, er, noticed i.e. that word 'rules' features rather prominently in this arrangement?
3, The hard Brexiteers have spent the last 50 years moaning (and these are world class moaners, not like some of us on this thread who are mere amateurs) about how undemocratic the are 'rule-making' processes of the EU - with its QMV, direct elections to the Parliament and other such nasty little European tricks designed solely to deprive the mighty UK of its sovereign status and design a Brussel's gravy train of immense size and global pretensions
4. How do they think the WTO works? Can you just pick the rules you want? Can we - the great British public - vote them out? Will we like all the rules?
There is in the Hard Brexit view of the world just a touch of arrogance (which is kind of quaint) that 'we' can bestride the trade world like a Colossus, picking and choosing deals and partners. If they don't play ball I guess we could always send a gun-boat.
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You've missed a significant point. Many Brexiteers, myself included, were very happy with the principle of the 'Common Market' - a trading block. Yes there had to be a few rules on standards but other than that it was just that - a trading block without many barriers. Then comes along CAP, the Euro, harmonised VAT, freedom of movement and the Lisbon Treaty. All pulling towards what Ted Heath only admitted to after the 1975 referendum was run, the aim was always for complete political and economic union. It is that I object to. There has already been talk of an EU foreign minister and heavy hints of an EU army. Heath's claim certainly hds some water and if true is not something I wish the UK to be part of. Scrap the EU parliament - there's no need for a parliament in a trading block - and return to being a 'Common Market' and I'd be very happy for us to stay.
Pretty pink fairy
Banned
- Jan 30, 2008
- 31,981
D
Deleted member 22389
Guest
I lost my job twice in manufacturing due to components being manufactured cheaper outside the EU, long before anyone had even heard of Brexit. I also know lots of companies that went to the wall over the years, where the hell was the concern for manufacturing then. These threats are nothing and I mean nothing compared to the millions of jobs we have lost over the years.
nicko31
Well-known member
Still plenty of manufacturing going on in the UK, but tends to be high end stuff.
There are 900k jobs and automotive and their supply chain, mostly be Brexit areas. The governments approach to the SM & CU is nothing short of restless...
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
No doubt when
I wonder if the judge will point out that in a previous court case that Gina had in the Supreme Court, Gina had agreed (which no doubt you remainers agreed with as well) with the premise contained in the ruling judgement that said
“notice under article 50(2) (which we shall call 'Notice') cannot be given in qualified or conditional terms and that, once given, it cannot be withdrawn”
“It follows from this that once the United Kingdom gives Notice, it will inevitably cease at a later date to be a member of the European Union and a party to the EU Treaties.”
All that means is it would just require another act of parliament to revoke it and is no different to repealing any other law in that regard.
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
The Freight Transport Association didn't hold back in it's criticism of this oncoming car crash yesterday in a release.
[tweet]1003996725667876866[/tweet]
https://fta.co.uk/media/press-releases/2018/june/brexit-britain-on-the-road-to-nowhere-says-fta
James Hookham, the organisation’s Deputy Chief Executive said:
“Of the eight demands made in FTA’s list of essentials to ‘Keep Britain Trading’ issued at the beginning of the year, not a single one has been progressed,” he says. “Details of whether or not the country will have a Transition/Implementation Period are still unclear, there is still no decision on what Customs arrangements we will have from March 2019 onwards.
“We keep getting told that all food and agricultural exports to the Continent and Ireland will be checked at EU ports - but there is nowhere to check them, and the system to check them does not exist. We still don’t know if we will be able to employ the 43,000 truck drivers in the UK that are nationals from another member state – that’s 13% of our driver workforce! There is no clarification on whether UK drivers’ qualifications are to be recognised, so they could well be barred from driving their own vehicles on the Continent.
“But the real show stopper is that, under European law, unless an agreement is reached, there will only be 103 international haulage Permits to cover the 300,000 journeys made by British trucks to Europe each year. The logistics industry is being asked to decide who would get a Permit to Drive if there are not enough to go around – in effect, being asked to destroy the businesses of its international haulage members.”
All these potential barriers were thrown up by the Government’s decision to leave the Customs Union and the Single Market. In return we were promised that ‘frictionless’ trade would continue through special agreements reached with the EU. Trade talks haven’t even started. In the event of a No Deal Brexit it will be the logistics industry, which operates 24/7 365 days a year, that will have to pick up the pieces of the failure of politicians to agree. No doubt we will face the unwarranted ire of consumers and businesses if goods cannot be delivered on time.
“The industry’s frustration with the lack of progress is building daily. Logistics businesses simply cannot answer their customers’ questions about how they will move goods after Brexit. Manufacturers and retailers are losing faith and fear that post-Brexit Britain is at real risk of becoming nothing more than a series of road blocks at our ports and airports.
“What is really making our members angry is that these real, legitimate concerns are simply being dismissed by some members of the Government on the basis that it will not be in the EU’s interests to impose them. This is a reckless attitude to take and is playing chicken with crucial parts of the British economy and the livelihoods of the seven million Britons in the industry. All the evidence is that the other EU member states are recruiting hordes of border officials to enforce their rule book, regardless of the cost to their businesses and consumers. Expecting economic realism to kick in after 50 years of top-down bureaucracy is a bit of a stretch from UK politicians who have always slammed the EU for its obsession with rules and bureaucracy. The reliance on the other side blinking first is hanging the logistics industry out to dry.
“To date, all the focus has been on what the new Customs arrangements will be. But this misses the point. The real issue will be the lack of permits to allow the trucks carrying the goods to travel to the Continent in the first place. This is the trucking equivalent of the threat to the aviation sector because of the ending of Europe-wide agreements when the UK leaves the Single Market.”
Over the past year, we have continued to push the Government on what needs to be agreed to ‘Keep Britain Trading’ after Brexit. Yet with less than ten months to go until the country is set to leave the EU, we have nothing agreed and there is every prospect of another flunked summit at the end of this month. Kicking the can down the road to October may be easy for politicians but by then the Christmas delivery season will be in full swing for the logistics sector and another four months of planning time will have been lost. Our members want to make things work, but our hands are tied. With “Armageddon” scenarios apparently being developed by Whitehall to cope with a No Deal Brexit next March even the Government seems to think it may be all over!”
#projectfear #experts #wouldhavehappenedanyway #remoaner etc
[tweet]1003996725667876866[/tweet]
https://fta.co.uk/media/press-releases/2018/june/brexit-britain-on-the-road-to-nowhere-says-fta
James Hookham, the organisation’s Deputy Chief Executive said:
“Of the eight demands made in FTA’s list of essentials to ‘Keep Britain Trading’ issued at the beginning of the year, not a single one has been progressed,” he says. “Details of whether or not the country will have a Transition/Implementation Period are still unclear, there is still no decision on what Customs arrangements we will have from March 2019 onwards.
“We keep getting told that all food and agricultural exports to the Continent and Ireland will be checked at EU ports - but there is nowhere to check them, and the system to check them does not exist. We still don’t know if we will be able to employ the 43,000 truck drivers in the UK that are nationals from another member state – that’s 13% of our driver workforce! There is no clarification on whether UK drivers’ qualifications are to be recognised, so they could well be barred from driving their own vehicles on the Continent.
“But the real show stopper is that, under European law, unless an agreement is reached, there will only be 103 international haulage Permits to cover the 300,000 journeys made by British trucks to Europe each year. The logistics industry is being asked to decide who would get a Permit to Drive if there are not enough to go around – in effect, being asked to destroy the businesses of its international haulage members.”
All these potential barriers were thrown up by the Government’s decision to leave the Customs Union and the Single Market. In return we were promised that ‘frictionless’ trade would continue through special agreements reached with the EU. Trade talks haven’t even started. In the event of a No Deal Brexit it will be the logistics industry, which operates 24/7 365 days a year, that will have to pick up the pieces of the failure of politicians to agree. No doubt we will face the unwarranted ire of consumers and businesses if goods cannot be delivered on time.
“The industry’s frustration with the lack of progress is building daily. Logistics businesses simply cannot answer their customers’ questions about how they will move goods after Brexit. Manufacturers and retailers are losing faith and fear that post-Brexit Britain is at real risk of becoming nothing more than a series of road blocks at our ports and airports.
“What is really making our members angry is that these real, legitimate concerns are simply being dismissed by some members of the Government on the basis that it will not be in the EU’s interests to impose them. This is a reckless attitude to take and is playing chicken with crucial parts of the British economy and the livelihoods of the seven million Britons in the industry. All the evidence is that the other EU member states are recruiting hordes of border officials to enforce their rule book, regardless of the cost to their businesses and consumers. Expecting economic realism to kick in after 50 years of top-down bureaucracy is a bit of a stretch from UK politicians who have always slammed the EU for its obsession with rules and bureaucracy. The reliance on the other side blinking first is hanging the logistics industry out to dry.
“To date, all the focus has been on what the new Customs arrangements will be. But this misses the point. The real issue will be the lack of permits to allow the trucks carrying the goods to travel to the Continent in the first place. This is the trucking equivalent of the threat to the aviation sector because of the ending of Europe-wide agreements when the UK leaves the Single Market.”
Over the past year, we have continued to push the Government on what needs to be agreed to ‘Keep Britain Trading’ after Brexit. Yet with less than ten months to go until the country is set to leave the EU, we have nothing agreed and there is every prospect of another flunked summit at the end of this month. Kicking the can down the road to October may be easy for politicians but by then the Christmas delivery season will be in full swing for the logistics sector and another four months of planning time will have been lost. Our members want to make things work, but our hands are tied. With “Armageddon” scenarios apparently being developed by Whitehall to cope with a No Deal Brexit next March even the Government seems to think it may be all over!”
#projectfear #experts #wouldhavehappenedanyway #remoaner etc
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,772
i naively expected those selling it had a plan, a strategy to take to negotiation, knowing the EU would play hard. shirely thats not unreasonable, they've been wanting this for at least 25 years since Maastricht, right? turns out even the threat of leaving without an agreement wasnt credible as they dont know how to deliver on that.
Unfortunately, all of this was pointed out to you throughout this thread by myself and others. And although you admitted that you didn't understand some aspects of it, you chose to put your fingers in your ears and shout 'project fear' together with a few others on here.
Anyway, better late than never and although this complete clusterf*** has already and will continue to cost us dearly, at least the lunatics haven't taken over the asylum yet. Despite what has happened, if we do leave, (which even I'm now doubting) it will be the softest of Brexits
Awaits [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] garbled rubbish to confirm he's still in his straitjacket
nicko31
Well-known member
Unfortunately, all of this was pointed out to you throughout this thread by myself and others. And although you admitted that you didn't understand some aspects of it, you chose to put your fingers in your ears and shout 'project fear' together with a few others on here.
Anyway, better late than never and although this complete clusterf*** has already and will continue to cost us dearly, at least the lunatics haven't taken over the asylum yet. Despite what has happened, if we do leave, (which even I'm now doubting) it will be the softest of Brexits
Awaits [MENTION=11191]Pretty pink fairy[/MENTION] garbled rubbish to confirm he's still in his straitjacket
HMRC standing by its £20B for the Brexiteers proposed post Brexit customs system
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44372011
Add on the 1% p.a loss in GDP growth since we voted out and his is all looking very expensive. I'm sure the Tories will find of way of fleecing the poor to pay for all this
ManOfSussex
We wunt be druv
There's been one since 1999 - Baroness Ashton served in that capacity for nearly 5 years.
Blue Valkyrie
Not seen such Bravery!
You forgot #bias