[Politics] Brexit

[5ways]

That may have been true in Thatchers era but there are a lot fewer nowadays.Unemployment benefits don't make you rich!

View attachment 97076

Europe is still the richest region in the world

 

[5ways]

In other news apparently the number of pupils who have a parent who is a citizen of another European country doubling since 2007 to almost 700,000 (many who can't speak english) has no impact on our education system and if you suggest otherwise you are racist. The New Labour government predicted a few thousand EU citizens might come when they agreed to let accession countries ctizens immediate access in 2004 ..129,000 came. The number is now 3.7 million, which obviously has no effect on housing availability, public services, community cohesion. Once again having any misgivings or concerns about this is racist.

They pay their way.

 

[Berty23]

In other news apparently the number of pupils who have a parent who is a citizen of another European country doubling since 2007 to almost 700,000 (many who can't speak english) has no impact on our education system and if you suggest otherwise you are racist. The New Labour government predicted a few thousand EU citizens might come when they agreed to let accession countries ctizens immediate access in 2004 ..129,000 came. The number is now 3.7 million, which obviously has no effect on housing availability, public services, community cohesion. Once again having any misgivings or concerns about this is racist.

Here are some stats. See page 10 for summary. The worst performing group are white British kids from disadvantaged background. https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_the_effects_of_poverty_annex.pdf.pdf#page10

Some might argue that us white Brits should push education a bit harder at home rather than see it as an inconvenience. These pesky immigrants coming over here, learning our language and outperforming us at school. Send them home.

 

[astralavi]

Why don’t people acknowledge it?
Because your version is utter twaddle. EU jobseekers do not have to prove they are working, or be a registered student after 3 months, they can carry on being a jobseeker , you cannot be deported simply for having the status unemployed.

"Even if you are not getting unemployment benefit, you can't be forced to leave your new country as long as you can prove you are still looking for a job and have a good chance of finding one"
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/finding-job-abroad/cannot-find-work-abroad/index_en.htm

The right to remain in the host country after stopping work is now laid down in Directive 2004/38/EC. Job seekers have the right to reside for a period exceeding six months (CoJ, Case C-292/89 Antonissen) without having to meet any conditions if they continue to seek employment in the host Member State and have a ‘genuine chance’ of finding work; during this time they cannot be expelled.
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.5.html


The numbers of EU jobseekers screwing the system compared to the multitude entering who do not is I suspect insignificant in the grander picture that this would somehow in your view be restricting or controlling EU migration

But lets take your view that we can stay in the single market and restrict European migration. How long do you think single market membership will last when we start issuing permits, enforcing quotas or requesting criminal background checks before entry, like we do on some non EU nationals, or when one month we turn EU citizens and their family away saying our quota is full for the month but come back next month and try again, like we do on some tiers for non EU nationals.

And you seem to be missing a rather important factor in border control of people entering at borders, clever countries do the clever thing and enforce entry conditions before entry is permitted at the border, not up and down the country after you have waltzed in anyway

It is a fact that existing EU rules allow states to deport citizens from other EU countries if they have become a burden on the welfare system of the state. What you are saying is that this is too difficult to enforce. Yet countries with the will to do so, e.g. Belgium and France, are able to do this. Are you really saying that enforcing these immigration rules is beyond the capability of the machinery of the British state?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

It is a fact that existing EU rules allow states to deport citizens from other EU countries if they have become a burden on the welfare system of the state. What you are saying is that this is too difficult to enforce. Yet countries with the will to do so, e.g. Belgium and France, are able to do this. Are you really saying that enforcing these immigration rules is beyond the capability of the machinery of the British state?

And then what happens, you get a group of people calling the government and the people who support it, xenophobic and all the other stupid labels we had to listen to over the last 10-15 years.

Truth is between about 1997 and 2010, we let too many people in to this country from the EU and outside, without any plan on how our infrastructure would cope in the future. It's why we have shortages now.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Long term immigrants eventually become citizens with voting rights too, no real surprise the majority of them would probably vote for a system that they benefited from and which encouraged mass migration, thus contributing to pushing remain numbers up.

Which 'Long term immigrants'? Are you saying immigrants from non-EU countries who have British citizenship voted 'remain' to benefit from Freedom of Movement when it never applied to them coming to this country? Or are you referring to the 3m+ EU citizens who have to apply for 'Settled Status' because they're not British citizens and who couldn't vote in 2016?

 

[WATFORD zero]

And then what happens, you get a group of people calling the government and the people who support it, xenophobic and all the other stupid labels we had to listen to over the last 10-15 years.

Truth is between about 1997 and 2010, we let too many people in to this country from the EU and outside, without any plan on how our infrastructure would cope in the future. It's why we have shortages now.

So why haven't UK Governments (of all political hues) used the existing rules which have been very simply explained to you, to stop or lessen immigration (both inside and outside the EU) when it's been available to them all along ?

Because they needed immigration to create economic growth to fund the implementation of their political ideals (and the infrastructure, NHS, Pensions etc etc).

What has this to do with the EU and Brexit - Nothing.

This is getting like Groundhog Day FFS

 

[ManOfSussex]

It is a fact that existing EU rules allow states to deport citizens from other EU countries if they have become a burden on the welfare system of the state. What you are saying is that this is too difficult to enforce. Yet countries with the will to do so, e.g. Belgium and France, are able to do this. Are you really saying that enforcing these immigration rules is beyond the capability of the machinery of the British state?

There's a registration after 6 months system in Austria too.

I see last night the old 13,000 a year/A8 Succession chestnut was brought out to play as well, ignoring the fact that the author of that report did state it would be 13,000 a year if we had the same transitional arrangements on A8 nationals as France and Germany did. The problem was France had the Ministre de l'Interieur, Germany had the Bundesministerium des Innern, fur Bau und Heimat, we had The Home Office - so colour photocopied WRS Certificates from Sheffield was all we ever going to be able to manage. (The child benefit loophole that got people frothing over their Richard Littlejohn columns was nothing to do with The EU either)

Anyway, we don't need a competent, functioning Department of the interior type ministry to administer and control immigration as we could like other countries do - We've got The Daily Mail, The Daily Express and The Sun's front pages to blame it all on The EU and the immigrants themselves and best of all we've got The Home Office because we're British.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

So why haven't UK Governments (of all political hues) used the existing rules which have been very simply explained to you, to stop or lessen immigration (both inside and outside the EU) when it's been available to them all along ?

Because they needed immigration to create economic growth to fund the implementation of their political ideals (and the infrastructure, NHS, Pensions etc etc).

What has this to do with the EU and Brexit - Nothing.

This is getting like Groundhog Day FFS

At the expense of shoving everyone in one area, What about quality of life? Sure you appreciate having space around you just like the next human. Felt crushed in Luton, and starting the feel the same down here.

 

[Two Professors]

Europe is still the richest region in the world

Drivel.Saudi Arabia on its own is richer than the EU countries together,and not on a mountain of QE debt,either!

 

[pastafarian]

It is a fact that existing EU rules allow states to deport citizens from other EU countries if they have become a burden on the welfare system of the state. What you are saying is that this is too difficult to enforce. Yet countries with the will to do so, e.g. Belgium and France, are able to do this. Are you really saying that enforcing these immigration rules is beyond the capability of the machinery of the British state?

And in each individual case the state must prove how the welfare state is burdened by the individual, must prove that they are not really actively seeking employment or that they have no hope of ever gaining employment. Unemployment benefit eventually runs out, in which case you can just remain here anyway as a jobseeker without the benefit allowance, you can still actively seek work or pretend you are and perhaps drift off into the black economy for some cash in hand work.
Your claim that they must be working by 3 months is completely wrong when they can stay here for longer as a jobseeker without claiming benefits.
Belgium deported 1500 people in 2015, these numbers are insignificant to the wider mass migration, and for its troubles Belgium finds itself up against the courts for expelling many illegally.
Our home office were deporting European rough sleepers but had to stop as it was ruled contrary to EU law.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...olicy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful
If you cant even deport rough sleepers what is the practical point of chasing an insignificant number where large amounts of resources would be needed to prove each individual case.

But the real point is the claim by the moaners that a crackdown on these people would have solved the whole immigration issue and we would never have voted to leave in the first place.
At some point you are going to have to decide if EU citizens mostly are here for work and a benefit to the taxpayer not a burden at all as you widely say or that actually the country is awash with benefit scroungers impacting the public purse to such an extent that a crackdown on this significant number would have changed perceptions on immigration. At the moment you want it both ways.

But most importantly you are going to need to realise that chasing people up months after they have crossed the border and waltzed in anyway does not and never will constitute effective border control at the point of entry, and does not restrict mass immigration.

 

[pastafarian]

Which 'Long term immigrants'? Are you saying immigrants from non-EU countries who have British citizenship voted 'remain' to benefit from Freedom of Movement when it never applied to them coming to this country? Or are you referring to the 3m+ EU citizens who have to apply for 'Settled Status' because they're not British citizens and who couldn't vote in 2016?

If you have benefited from (past tense) migration whether through free movement or via non EU means, you are likely to vote to allow others to benefit from migration too,
But sshh keep it quiet, don’t forget free movement wasn’t an issue because it wasn’t on the ballot paper.

 

[5ways]

Drivel.Saudi Arabia on its own is richer than the EU countries together,and not on a mountain of QE debt,either!

You really don't know what you're talking about.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

And in each individual case the state must prove how the welfare state is burdened by the individual, must prove that they are not really actively seeking employment or that they have no hope of ever gaining employment. Unemployment benefit eventually runs out, in which case you can just remain here anyway as a jobseeker without the benefit allowance, you can still actively seek work or pretend you are and perhaps drift off into the black economy for some cash in hand work.
Your claim that they must be working by 3 months is completely wrong when they can stay here for longer as a jobseeker without claiming benefits.
Belgium deported 1500 people in 2015, these numbers are insignificant to the wider mass migration, and for its troubles Belgium finds itself up against the courts for expelling many illegally.
Our home office were deporting European rough sleepers but had to stop as it was ruled contrary to EU law.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...olicy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful
If you cant even deport rough sleepers what is the practical point of chasing an insignificant number where large amounts of resources would be needed to prove each individual case.

But the real point is the claim by the moaners that a crackdown on these people would have solved the whole immigration issue and we would never have voted to leave in the first place.
At some point you are going to have to decide if EU citizens mostly are here for work and a benefit to the taxpayer not a burden at all as you widely say or that actually the country is awash with benefit scroungers impacting the public purse to such an extent that a crackdown on this significant number would have changed perceptions on immigration. At the moment you want it both ways.

But most importantly you are going to need to realise that chasing people up months after they have crossed the border and waltzed in anyway does not and never will constitute effective border control at the point of entry, and does not restrict mass immigration.

Comprehensve demolition of the 'we could have always controlled our borders' Guardian nonsense. Also I wonder about the cost involved in effectively monitoring 3.7 million people (and counting) to exactly the right immigration criteria and fighting the inevitable deluge of court cases.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

They pay their way.

Depends on who 'they' are and what criteria is used to judge net positives/negatives. Also even if 100% of Eu migrants were deemed to be paying their way that doesn't address the potential strain on public services, community cohesion etc when we can't significantly control therefore plan for the numbers.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Here are some stats. See page 10 for summary. The worst performing group are white British kids from disadvantaged background. https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_the_effects_of_poverty_annex.pdf.pdf#page10

Some might argue that us white Brits should push education a bit harder at home rather than see it as an inconvenience. These pesky immigrants coming over here, learning our language and outperforming us at school. Send them home.

You seem to be assuming the reason why white kids are failing is because they are not being pushed. It must be self-evident that a finite amount of resources and teaching time is diluted when more pressures are put on them. The last sentence is just more tedious stereotyping so favoured by peeps who often complain about sterotyping/prejudice ...

 

[Two Professors]

You really don't know what you're talking about.

Well you certainly don't,or you would have posted one of your charts to prove your hypothesis.Just saying something is fact because it's your world view doesn't make it so.Take Russia,Norway,Switzerland,and the UK soon,out of Europe figures,and there ain't much left.You're like Billy Bullshit Bertie,spouting utter drivel when you can't back it up.

 

[5ways]

Well you certainly don't,or you would have posted one of your charts to prove your hypothesis.Just saying something is fact because it's your world view doesn't make it so.Take Russia,Norway,Switzerland,and the UK soon,out of Europe figures,and there ain't much left.You're like Billy Bullshit Bertie,spouting utter drivel when you can't back it up.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=EU,+Saudi+Arabia+GDP

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Well you certainly don't,or you would have posted one of your charts to prove your hypothesis.Just saying something is fact because it's your world view doesn't make it so.Take Russia,Norway,Switzerland,and the UK soon,out of Europe figures,and there ain't much left.You're like Billy Bullshit Bertie,spouting utter drivel when you can't back it up.

Ironic that you should use the term bull shit eh? [MENTION=25549]5ways[/MENTION], in case you’re not aware [MENTION=14132]Two Professors[/MENTION] was outed as a liar some time ago. He was caught out embellishing his personal life to make himself seem more interesting/successful than he actually is. Personally, I wouldn’t waste my time with him.

 

[Swillis]

Just because you and your kids can't get a job, doesn't mean the EU is broken. Try getting some skills maybe?

For the record I don't think you are particularly racist (the get out card of your mob "you're calling me racist therefore everything you say is invalid"), nevertheless you are as thick as shat in a bottle and clearly cannot think for yourself. You seem to buy the Daily Mail take on life, wholesale. It's a shame but people like you have destroyed this country. You are to blame, not immigrants.

Layaz Playaz

I work and my children are not in need of a job, considering they are both in full time education. One of them did want to be an actor but I told him the tragic tale of someone who also wanted to be an actor. The man in that tale failed dismally as well and now spends all day writing out rubbish on internet message boards. A grim tale indeed.