[Politics] Brexit

[Thunder Bolt]

If you want to trawl the whole thread it's just as bad from the other side. Personally when posters retort to abuse their argument is lost

I agree with that.

 

[beorhthelm]

My argument is ...

 

[The Clamp]

I am obviously not making my point about the constant denominator and lost sales very well.

They wouldn't understand it. They have found a graph that they think backs up their viewpoint. That's all they want to know. they are binary brained flipflops. They were asked if they wanted to leave, they asked no questions, no analysis, no long term thinking. Yes or No. We have now got an utter mess because they are incapable of anything but binary thinking. They have found a graph. Their understanding of the graph is that it supports their view. They only want to see what's on that graph, they don't want to be reminded of other factors not represented on the graph.
It's a good job it wasn't a hard copy. They would probably have spread marmite on it and eaten the buggering thing.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

The third option is the trade is lost. If I’m exporting items to the EU, and they decide to stop buying, it could be the case no one else buys them up.

If you have 100 items exported and 50 go to the EU and 50 non-EU that’s 50% export for both. If the EU stop buying 20 and no one else picks them up that is then 30/100 and 50/100.

Where have I said it’s about volume. My initial reply which you quoted states %, my example is %. I’ll ask again, what if the trade is lost? Where does that go in the graph?

[MENTION=1365]Westdene Seagull[/MENTION], can you tell me?

No they don’t necessarily. The denominator is exports. If you make a 100 items and someone doesn’t buy them the denominator (for the %) is still 100.

I am obviously not making my point about the constant denominator and lost sales very well.

My argument is if you make 100 widgets for export and they can’t be sold back home and no one abroad wants them you can’t remove them from the denominator. Why would you?

You can only see two lines on the graph - hence there are TWO options. Stop squiriming. Really

 

[larus]

They wouldn't understand it. They have found a graph that they think backs up their viewpoint. That's all they want to know. they are binary brained flipflops. They were asked if they wanted to leave, they asked no questions, no analysis, no long term thinking. Yes or No. We have now got an utter mess because they are incapable of anything but binary thinking. They have found a graph. Their understanding of the graph is that it supports their view. They only want to see what's on that graph, they don't want to be reminded of other factors not represented on the graph.
It's a good job it wasn't a hard copy. They would probably have spread marmite on it and eaten the buggering thing.

It was a discussion about the graph.
It was a discussion about the logic of that graph.

It was not a discussion about whether economists are saying we are in a recession (still waiting for some evidence to nback up your claim on that) .
It was not a discussion about the chances of Southampton being relegated.
It was not a discussion about the Italian talks on forming a government,.

All it shows is the percentage of U.K. exports going to 2 categories of destination and therefore it must total 100% of the exports.
That’s it. That’s all it can be. I know you’re SLOW so we need to make allowances for you. HT has surprised me though - I had reached the opinion he was reasonably intelligent (with a different opinion to me which is OK), but his continual defence of his original post is pathetic.

He’d get more respect for admitting he was wrong.

 

[GT49er]

Yes - The Electoral Roll - just like for us.

Although it appears the Electoral Commission don't know about it any more than I did..........
http://www.electoralcommission.org....-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election

Apology accepted.

There was no apology.

 

[The Clamp]

It was a discussion about the graph.
It was a discussion about the logic of that graph.

It was not a discussion about whether economists are saying we are in a recession (still waiting for some evidence to nback up your claim on that) .
It was not a discussion about the chances of Southampton being relegated.
It was not a discussion about the Italian talks on forming a government,.

All it shows is the percentage of U.K. exports going to 2 categories of destination and therefore it must total 100% of the exports.
That’s it. That’s all it can be. I know you’re SLOW so we need to make allowances for you. HT has surprised me though - I had reached the opinion he was reasonably intelligent (with a different opinion to me which is OK), but his continual defence of his original post is pathetic.

He’d get more respect for admitting he was wrong.

Nobody cares what you think.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Although it appears the Electoral Commission don't know about it any more than I did..........
http://www.electoralcommission.org....-is-eligible-to-vote-at-a-uk-general-election

That's for UK General Elections, which EU citizens don't vote in, hence I didn't mention that they could. You need to be on The Electoral Roll, like us, and registered to vote for local and EU elections, which EU citizens can vote in though.

 

[The Rivet]

Nobody cares what you think.

Nobody cares what you think either!

 

[pastafarian]

Or we could just cut out the ten years of getting poorer (in the potential view of a majority) before that happens and we have to end up joining on far less palatable terms?

So close, you nearly caught democracy there.
If after 10 years you have data showing the country was indeed economically worse off outside of The EU compared to our time in The EU, then in 10 years campaign to rejoin The EU. You can show this economic data, rather than forecasts and the public can weigh this up along with immigration, parliamentary sovereignty and law making, primacy of courts, terms of new membership and other factors and decide if on balance they wish to rejoin or continue to stay OUT.

Cant say fairer than that. It’s the correct democratic path.
In 10 years time the large numbers of remainers who are against referendums in the first place, and those remainers that think joe public are too stupid to vote on such things via a referendum anyway might have softened their stance by then and will be willing to use the very tool they moan about. Wouldn’t that be ironic.

On the other hand, you've spent days arguing how a second referendum shouldn't have "remain" on the ballot paper, despite the fact that a crap deal or no deal might clearly - in the minds of the electorate - look like a crock of shìt. You're not being remotely democratic, you're just insisting on getting out of the EU whatever the cost. Hopefully, similar clowns in parliament will be shouted down.

I have argued for far longer than a few days that the referendum was, as in accordance with The Referendum Act 2015 a singular referendum, not now a series of referendums because you lost.

There shouldn’t be remain on a second referendum because there shouldn’t be another IN/OUT referendum. We have done that and ticked the box.The next time the question is revisited about being members of the EU it should be a REJOIN/STAY OUT referendum.

 

[larus]

Nobody cares what you think.

Nobody cares what you think either!

He can't think. That's obvious by the random words he posts on here which don't make sense.

After all, he's the guy who said that experts were saying we're in a recession. Still waiting for the links to these experts. I even showed him his post and he still couldn't do it. Surprised he's still up though. Maybe mummy has said he's been a good boy this week and kept the bed dry.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

But they DON’T get included in the exports if they haven’t been exported.

Exports is what we EXPORT.

The PERCENTAGE is based on the destination. It must equal 100%.

This may well be the case. And I understand your definition of “export” for this graph. My point is this definition is in my opinion inappropriate to use. You can’t just ignore items from the denominator which get made for export which are then not exported as it clearly provides an incomplete and biased picture. Which, as I said, makes me suspicious.

If I’m not making myself clear I’ll leave it here. I am unable to explain this any other way.

 

[pastafarian]

 

[GT49er]

Yes - The Electoral Roll - just like for us.

Apology accepted.

Nice bit of splitting hairs there - the EU hierarchy would love you! My point was that foreign nationals don't get a vote in General Elections (which they don't). As far as this debate is concerned, the ability to vote in local elections is irrelevant. Quite rightly, as in most democratic regimes, foreign nationals do not get a vote in General elections or Referendums. Keep it that way, eh?

But, I accept that you are a remainer, with your own code of legitimate debate. Carry on.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

You can only see two lines on the graph - hence there are TWO options. Stop squiriming. Really

Two options for the numerator yes, EU and non-EU. I’m talking about the denominator though.

 

[ManOfSussex]

Nice bit of splitting hairs there - the EU hierarchy would love you! My point was that foreign nationals don't get a vote in General Elections (which they don't). As far as this debate is concerned, the ability to vote in local elections is irrelevant. Quite rightly, as in most democratic regimes, foreign nationals do not get a vote in General elections or Referendums. Keep it that way, eh?

But, I accept that you are a remainer, with your own code of legitimate debate. Carry on.

Foreign nationals do get to vote in General Elections though as I pointed out earlier and as your link clearly highlights! - "be a British, Irish or qualifying Commonwealth citizen."

I think the original point [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] was making was in regards to her opinion that all EU nationals should have got a vote in the Brexit referendum, as did Irish, Maltese and Cypriot citizens. I then pointed out that all EU citizens could vote in local and EU elections and could also vote in the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum.

I'm not splitting hairs - you're seemingly not understanding it or the links you're providing.

 

[beorhthelm]

Two options for the numerator yes, EU and non-EU. I’m talking about the denominator though.

its exports. if ithe grpah were total output of the economy you have a point. but its exports.

if in some contrived scenario there were more supply for export than demand, prices would lower so it sold in the export markets, or it would be sold at home, or scrapped.

 

[larus]

This may well be the case. And I understand your definition of “export” for this graph. My point is this definition is in my opinion inappropriate to use. You can’t just ignore items from the denominator which get made for export which are then not exported as it clearly provides an incomplete and biased picture. Which, as I said, makes me suspicious.

If I’m not making myself clear I’ll leave it here. I am unable to explain this any other way.

The total of our exports in any year is 100%. 100% of our exports are exports.

You then have 2 destination categories. A and B. Some go to A the rest go to B. The % to A plus the % to B = 100%. Every year.

The graph does not show changing volume/value.

Therefore, if 1 % percentage goes down, the other MUST go up.

100 - a = b.
Or
100 - b = a.
Or
a + b = 100.

Yep, they’re all the same.

That’s what the chart is, but you are trying to make it out to be something it’s not. You made a mistake but just can’t admit it.

 

[GT49er]

Yes - The Electoral Roll - just like for us.

Apology accepted.

Foreign nationals do get to vote in General Elections though as I pointed out earlier and as your link clearly highlights! - "be a British, Irish or qualifying Commonwealth citizen."

I think the original point [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] was making was in regards to her opinion that all EU nationals should have got a vote in the Brexit referendum, as did Irish, Maltese and Cypriot citizens. I then pointed out that all EU citizens could vote in local and EU elections and could also vote in the 2014 Scottish Independence referendum.

I'm not splitting hairs - you're seemingly not understanding it or the links you're providing.

What a stupid and pathetic argument! Foreign nationals do not get a vote, unless they are Irish or - and what is it? - Maltese or Gibraltarian. So not French, Spanish, German or Dutch (etc., etc., etc.) Your pathetic attempt to 'prove' that my post was wrong was just a load of shit. Remoaner shit - and boy, you lot who've been denied your entitlement have got shitloads of that.

Try reading the post I was replying to, and try and understand the gist of the conversation before spouting shit in future, eh? I'm off now - better conversations out there than trying to piddle nonsense with you. I guess as a true progressive modern twenty-first century super liberal you'll be cheering on every wrecking attempt by the House of Lords - suddenly don't want them abolished, eh? Ever heard of the expression 'Volte face'?

Pffft......................

 

[Thunder Bolt]

What a stupid and pathetic argument! Foreign nationals do not get a vote, unless they are Irish or - and what is it? - Maltese or Gibraltarian. So not French, Spanish, German or Dutch (etc., etc., etc.) Your pathetic attempt to 'prove' that my post was wrong was just a load of shit. Remoaner shit - and boy, you lot who've been denied your entitlement have got shitloads of that.

Try reading the post I was replying to, and try and understand the gist of the conversation before spouting shit in future, eh? I'm off now - better conversations out there than trying to piddle nonsense with you. I guess as a true progressive modern twenty-first century super liberal you'll be cheering on every wrecking attempt by the House of Lords - suddenly don't want them abolished, eh? Ever heard of the expression 'Volte face'?

Pffft......................

Once again, you resort to insults.

I've never wanted the House of Lords abolished. I think it is a good idea to have neutrals, as well as Life Peers, to examine government legislations. Yes, I have cheered every vote they've made & sent back to the Commons to amend. The system works. It's been in place for 400 years or do.
EU nationals have had the right to live, work, marry, get educated all over Europe. Then, when a vote is taken, which directly affects them and their status, they were barred from taking part. That vote also affects us, unless you can claim another nationality.
It's no surprise that Nigel Farage's offspring have got German passports now, through their mother.
Still one rule for them and another for us.