[Politics] Brexit

[JC Footy Genius]

It is self-evident that, all things being equal, the larger the electorate the smaller the influence of the individual voter. What stops this being an argument in favour of small countries (Wessex anyone?) is that things are rarely equal.

If over-centralisation is avoided and power heavily devolved, a large democracy can represent its citizens as well as a small one. Better in some cases - the USA is far more decentralised than, say, the UK with the result that the man on the Des Moines omnibus has more influence over the practical legislation that affects his day to day life than his opposite number on the Clapham one. The politicians who most tailor his days are certainly more accountable than the remote figures of over-centralised Britain.

The EU is decentralised to the point where its component parts - the nation states - have the theoretical power to declare war on each other. If this devolution is preserved and strengthened, the citizens of Europe can combine all the benefits of ‘small democracy’ with the advantages of being members of a large and powerful economic and political unit.

I suggest that it is idle to simply compare numbers in the way you have done.

The original European referendum revolved around the concept of ‘shared sovereignty’ to the extent that the Telegraph said at the time that it was drowning out other issues. Personally I have no problem with diluting part of my influence in this way providing that significant amounts of practical power is held at local level - a level more local than the UK has achieved in the past, and certainly more local than the politicians of Brexit will want in the future.

'Over centralisation avoided', 'power heavily devolved', 'devolution preserved and strengthened' all phrases that could only be used by someone who hasn't been following European affairs for the last 60 years or heard the term 'Ever closer union'.

 

[nicko31]

and some remainers want to make problems in Northern Ireland all about Brexit, overlooking its local issues at the root of all their problems. or were the failure of energy scheme and McGuinness's resignation all down to the brexit vote?

Well if you a sensible solution to the Irish border I'm all ears. I requested this from Brexiteers on this board a few weeks ago and got nothing of worth so far

 

[nicko31]

It's alright, David Davis has just said The Good Friday Agreement isn't going to be a problem in regards to Brexit, so it's all fine.

[tweet]965947214387449857[/tweet]

Didn't May meeting with the Irish PM last week, heard nothing. Obviously went well

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Well if you a sensible solution to the Irish border I'm all ears. I requested this from Brexiteers on this board a few weeks ago and got nothing of worth so far

They're still thinking about it.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Uh oh, the nerdy gang has been on a recruitment drive at the school library.

It's a formidable signing from [MENTION=409]Herr Tubthumper[/MENTION], welcome [MENTION=33116]Garry Nelson's teacher[/MENTION], do you lot still play war games with your mates and make machine gun noises

No prizes for guessing which side HT was on

 

[Triggaaar]

Well if you a sensible solution to the Irish border I'm all ears.

What do you think is the main issue there?

 

[Lincoln Imp]

'Over centralisation avoided', 'power heavily devolved', 'devolution preserved and strengthened' all phrases that could only be used by someone who hasn't been following European affairs for the last 60 years or heard the term 'Ever closer union'.

You're shifting the argument. My point was that it was misleading of you to attempt a straight comparison between the numbers needed to elect a representative in the UK and the EU - because the natures of the two bodies are quite different. The EU is far less centralised than the UK (as it should be), has a much narrower remit and, apart from anything else, has a further layer of democratised government beneath it.

I stand by the phrases - italicised by you - regarding decentralisation. They are legitimate and achievable aims in my view. I understand that you will disagree with me, but please try to do so without your habitual condescension.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Why the retort in German, a country I have lived and worked, what's your point on that have you live there too ?

Well I can give you list of things remainers have got wrong, even accepting Brexit has hardly happened yet I can at least cite that the pre referendum projections for a post referendum UK were wrong and politically driven, you though to stay in the game need to either push your future projections upstream or refuse to accept any current economic data as positive anyway.

Well lets put it this way is 1.8% growth better than a recession, is a supposedly reducing inflation peak of 3.1% down last month to 3.0% with BoE forecasting lower nearer to the 2% target this year better than runaway inflation, is a historically high FTSE 100 & 250's markets better than a market crash and is historically low unemployment better than high unemployment or a continuation of historically low interest rates preferable to considerably higher interest rates.

What exactly did you think I might say.

There was no particular point to the reply in German. Because I felt like it, and perhaps to introduce a little humour.

And re all the figures you quote, our current economic figures are below what is happening in the rest of Europe. I guess you are talking about the "actual" rather thaan the pre-referendum forecast, but they would all have been better had the referendum not gone the way they did.

And would you expect the Bank of England, having seen the referendum go the way it did, to sit back and say "Ha, we'll show them! Let's let the economy slide". That is greatly down to serious work on their side.

And although we might have record levels of employment, what about the quality of that employment and the level of wages? We have record numbers of people/families in work and still below the official poverty line. That probably has more to do with austerity and an inept (to say the least) government than BREXIT, but if they were spending less time trying to work out what on earth to do about our leaving Europe, they might be able to put their mind to it.

And incidentally, with all your silly comments about nerds and libraries and the "big boys", are you trying to imply that older people are more likely to see eye to eye with you and Brexit? I don't know how old you are, but age does not necessarily bring wisdom.

Age might bring more time to read (and believe) the Daily Mail, though...........

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You're shifting the argument. My point was that it was misleading of you to attempt a straight comparison between the numbers needed to elect a representative in the UK and the EU - because the natures of the two bodies are quite different. The EU is far less centralised than the UK (as it should be), has a much narrower remit and, apart from anything else, has a further layer of democratised government beneath it.

I stand by the phrases - italicised by you - regarding decentralisation. They are legitimate and achievable aims in my view. I understand that you will disagree with me, but please try to do so without your habitual condescension.

It's getting harder to decipher what your argument actually is. The only straight comparison on numbers I made was about our handfull of MEP's compared to the overall number and how many votes it takes to elect an MEP here compared with the EU average. Please point out the bit where I mentioned the numbers needed to elect a representative to the UK parliament compared to the EU parliament?

I agree legitimate aims .. but achievable? Name one EU treaty that has ever devolved more net powers to the nation states?

 

[BigGully]

There was no particular point to the reply in German. Because I felt like it, and perhaps to introduce a little humour.

And re all the figures you quote, our current economic figures are below what is happening in the rest of Europe. I guess you are talking about the "actual" rather thaan the pre-referendum forecast, but they would all have been better had the referendum not gone the way they did.

And would you expect the Bank of England, having seen the referendum go the way it did, to sit back and say "Ha, we'll show them! Let's let the economy slide". That is greatly down to serious work on their side.

And although we might have record levels of employment, what about the quality of that employment and the level of wages? We have record numbers of people/families in work and still below the official poverty line. That probably has more to do with austerity and an inept (to say the least) government than BREXIT, but if they were spending less time trying to work out what on earth to do about our leaving Europe, they might be able to put their mind to it.

And incidentally, with all your silly comments about nerds and libraries and the "big boys", are you trying to imply that older people are more likely to see eye to eye with you and Brexit? I don't know how old you are, but age does not necessarily bring wisdom.

Age might bring more time to read (and believe) the Daily Mail, though...........

Firstly when did anything said in German increase its comedic effect, unless on a stag do wearing a Hitler moustache and goose-stepping around somewhere inappropriate in deepest Europe it never does.

Secondly how can you submit an economic outcome based on some assumption that can never be truly proven and then use that flawed forecast to mitigate earlier forecasts and assumptions that have been proven to be wrong, outrageously so.

Thirdly the BoE does what it does to try and ensure our economy has a favourable environment in which to function, but ultimately business is business, you need to sell stuff and ensure people can buy stuff, the current key economic indicators do not support some posters view that we have a Brexit based failing economy.

Fourthly you're politically driven to be anti tory, anti austerity, anti Brexit and you seem passionately pro socialism, we are unlikely to agree on much when it comes to some preferred economic and social model.

Fifthly you are being selective on the silly claims bit, I have my fair share of personal insults but I have never put anyone on ignore, I am rarely abusive but can be confrontational, NSC isn't an important part of my life and because I haven't met you, you are neither my friend nor enemy its just a bit of a discussion with a few spats now and then.

Sixthly, the nerds jibe is just a passive insult to those I would prefer to swear at but as I said earlier I am rarely abusive.

Now p1ss off

 

[JC Footy Genius]

EU has ‘sneering disregard’ for patriotic Britons, says Sir Nick Clegg

Brussels has a “sneering disregard” for British patriotism and EU politicians were naive to think that nations would accept deeper integration with Europe, Sir Nick Clegg has said.

In comments that contrast dramatically with his pro-Remain rhetoric, the former deputy prime minister told a think tank this week that EU leaders had shown “shocking naivety” and had misread the public.

Speaking at a meeting of a think tank in Brussels on Monday evening, Sir Nick, who has urged Britons to stop Brexit, conceded that he had encountered a “barely concealed, almost sneering disregard for the politics of identity and the politics of patriotism” in his dealings with the EU.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...triotic-britons-says-sir-nick-clegg-zd8l33mqf

I agree with Nick (now he's being vaguley honest). The EU has a sneering disregard for British patriots as do their 5th column representatives in the UK.

 

[BigGully]

EU has ‘sneering disregard’ for patriotic Britons, says Sir Nick Clegg

Brussels has a “sneering disregard” for British patriotism and EU politicians were naive to think that nations would accept deeper integration with Europe, Sir Nick Clegg has said.

In comments that contrast dramatically with his pro-Remain rhetoric, the former deputy prime minister told a think tank this week that EU leaders had shown “shocking naivety” and had misread the public.

Speaking at a meeting of a think tank in Brussels on Monday evening, Sir Nick, who has urged Britons to stop Brexit, conceded that he had encountered a “barely concealed, almost sneering disregard for the politics of identity and the politics of patriotism” in his dealings with the EU.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...triotic-britons-says-sir-nick-clegg-zd8l33mqf

I agree with Nick (now he's being vaguley honest). The EU has a sneering disregard for British patriots as do their 5th column representatives in the UK.

More like a culmination of him shaving and looking at himself in the mirror each morning .......

 

[beorhthelm]

Well if you a sensible solution to the Irish border I'm all ears. I requested this from Brexiteers on this board a few weeks ago and got nothing of worth so far

i outlined something on Irish boarder weeks/hundreds of pages ago, you just dont want to hear of solutions, only problems. like the current situation with powersharing, which has nothing to do with brexit but being made another problem to roll around in, as you've just demonstrated.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

It's getting harder to decipher what your argument actually is. The only straight comparison on numbers I made was about our handfull of MEP's compared to the overall number and how many votes it takes to elect an MEP here compared with the EU average. Please point out the bit where I mentioned the numbers needed to elect a representative to the UK parliament compared to the EU parliament?

I agree legitimate aims .. but achievable? Name one EU treaty that has ever devolved more net powers to the nation states?

Oh come on, your point was that because the UK is only a part of a larger group (10% came up) the number of people needed to elect one representative was high. High compared to what? Well, given that this entire thread, most of the 44k posts, is about the merits of Britain being in or out of the EU, you clearly meant high compared to having all representatives at Westminster.

You ask a question and I can't answer it off the top of my head. Sorry.. There is a danger though in assuming that the politics of anything (state, union, local authority, empire) will continue in the same direction for ever. That never ever happens. There are pressures in Europe and I believe that now is the precise time we could have been benefitting from them. It seems that that is not going to happen. You think that is wonderful. Fair enough. We disagree.

 

[WATFORD zero]

i outlined something on Irish boarder weeks/hundreds of pages ago, you just dont want to hear of solutions, only problems. like the current situation with powersharing, which has nothing to do with brexit but being made another problem to roll around in, as you've just demonstrated.

Would this be the one using technology that hasn't been invented yet?

Because if those are the rules I've got a brilliant solution (and you'll never queue at the Amex again)

 

[Lincoln Imp]

EU has ‘sneering disregard’ for patriotic Britons, says Sir Nick Clegg

Brussels has a “sneering disregard” for British patriotism and EU politicians were naive to think that nations would accept deeper integration with Europe, Sir Nick Clegg has said.

In comments that contrast dramatically with his pro-Remain rhetoric, the former deputy prime minister told a think tank this week that EU leaders had shown “shocking naivety” and had misread the public.

Speaking at a meeting of a think tank in Brussels on Monday evening, Sir Nick, who has urged Britons to stop Brexit, conceded that he had encountered a “barely concealed, almost sneering disregard for the politics of identity and the politics of patriotism” in his dealings with the EU.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...triotic-britons-says-sir-nick-clegg-zd8l33mqf

I agree with Nick (now he's being vaguley honest). The EU has a sneering disregard for British patriots as do their 5th column representatives in the UK.

Vaguely honest? You don't know how to spell it.

 

[cheshunt seagull]

Brexit means Brexit = Not a Mad Max style Dystopia.

Really getting the meat on the bones of this now aren't we.

It is the only progress we have made toward a vision of post-Brexit Britain in 20 months. Maybe they will just work there way through all the cinematic dystopias eliminating them one by one until we only have one left and have to settle for that.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Uh oh, the nerdy gang has been on a recruitment drive at the school library.

This thread went gold a few pages ago. “Nerdy gang”, brilliant.

 

[Hampster Gull]

It is the only progress we have made toward a vision of post-Brexit Britain in 20 months. Maybe they will just work there way through all the cinematic dystopias eliminating them one by one until we only have one left and have to settle for that.

Brexitopia. The new Brexitremist vision of the U.K.

 

[WATFORD zero]

i outlined something on Irish boarder weeks/hundreds of pages ago, you just dont want to hear of solutions, only problems. like the current situation with powersharing, which has nothing to do with brexit but being made another problem to roll around in, as you've just demonstrated.

Genuinely can't find the solution you outlined so maybe you could repeat it ?

(See, quite happy to enter into discussion on Brexit. It's only the more foolish of the posters on here I choose to ignore )

*edit* can just picture a certain poster furiously paging through to prove I responded to them