[Politics] Brexit

[sir albion]

After watching the TV debate I have come to the conclusion that a large fraction of remain voters simply don't care about immigration.

After watching and listening to some of those students last night you do wonder what strange types we have in this country as everything was about money and the economy and don't recall one mention of independence,sovereignty and identity and being proud to be British.
More interested in where they can travel,phone tarrif charges and more....guess when you're young you really don't get the whole picture of being British and proud

 

[cunning fergus]

Do you think the UK is democratic then when 64% of the population are governed by a party they didn't vote for?

I noted that Lucas used that argument last night.......and the turnout for EU elections is even worse than national elections, so making that argument is surely pointing to an even worse democratic justification for the EU.

And the EU elections do not elect representatives to the executive (the Commission), we are electing representatives to the Parliament, which is much closer to the lords in how it works.

In the last euro election of course, most people (who could be bothered) voted for UKIP, and how has the wishes of that majority of the UK electorate turned out? No change whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Why does that matter?

The point we were debating (I can see things have moved on, or not) is that if you argue immigrants are are NET benefit how is that arrived at?

The arrival of hundreds of thousands of people in the UK is not a zero sum game, and yet you and others continue to make statements that these people are an unequivocal benefit.

That makes no sense, the most capitalist country in the world would not allow anyone in the world who gets there to start working.

So why does it work in the EU? If immigration is such an economic benefit why don't all countries , especially those in recession just open its borders?

The 10,000 foreign prisoners is just a single case in point, and they will cost the taxpayer many hundreds of millions a year, incl. investigating, prosecuting, incarcerating and probation ......so is this undoubted negative cost (and others) deducted from the dubious benefits of mass migration we are so often told about?

Let's be honest, immigration and the way it is handled doesn't make any sense at all. We can all see it, apart from Remain who would rather go on the advice of career politicians and flood this country with hundreds of thousands of people year after year, with absolutely no means of applying any sort of brake on it.

After June 23rd, if we Remain it is down to them. The Leavers have warned Remainers of the consequences. I suppose when the Remainers find they are pushed to the back of the queue for jobs, find it takes longer to get a doctors appointment and experience other problems, they might just wish they ticked the box to Leave when they had the opportunity.

 

[sir albion]

Why does that matter?

The point we were debating (I can see things have moved on, or not) is that if you argue immigrants are are NET benefit how is that arrived at?

The arrival of hundreds of thousands of people in the UK is not a zero sum game, and yet you and others continue to make statements that these people are an unequivocal benefit.

That makes no sense, the most capitalist country in the world would not allow anyone in the world who gets there to start working.

So why does it work in the EU? If immigration is such an economic benefit why don't all countries , especially those in recession just open its borders?

The 10,000 foreign prisoners is just a single case in point, and they will cost the taxpayer many hundreds of millions a year, incl. investigating, prosecuting, incarcerating and probation ......so is this undoubted negative cost (and others) deducted from the dubious benefits of mass migration we are so often told about?

Migrants benefit companies and landlords and more although they also are a serious drain on our public services.
The money we get from taxes doesn't actually seem to go in the pot to improve the infrastructure where it's required that's blatantly clear to see.

 

[cunning fergus]

#neither
As soon as I win the lottery, I'm off[emoji106]

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Yes, most people do........EU enthusiast Sir Phillip Green won the lottery by shredding BHS pensions, and paying dividends to his missus in Monaco to avoid UK tax.

His victims will have to stay here and work till they're 85 competing for living wage jobs with the hundreds of thousands arriving from all corners of the world.

#great.

 

[Maldini]

Certainly sounds like solid figures you got there. Let's say 100,000? LET'S SAY you actually look it up, AT LEAST that way you're not just promoting numbers from thin air.

You mean get my facts right.Does that rule apply to Mr Project Fear,Cameron also?LET'S SAY it should do.Right?

 

[Hamilton]

Why does that matter?

The point we were debating (I can see things have moved on, or not) is that if you argue immigrants are are NET benefit how is that arrived at?

The arrival of hundreds of thousands of people in the UK is not a zero sum game, and yet you and others continue to make statements that these people are an unequivocal benefit.

That makes no sense, the most capitalist country in the world would not allow anyone in the world who gets there to start working.

So why does it work in the EU? If immigration is such an economic benefit why don't all countries , especially those in recession just open its borders?

The 10,000 foreign prisoners is just a single case in point, and they will cost the taxpayer many hundreds of millions a year, incl. investigating, prosecuting, incarcerating and probation ......so is this undoubted negative cost (and others) deducted from the dubious benefits of mass migration we are so often told about?

Only 3900 were EU nationals. Of that number, 770 were Irish.

Circa 650 were Jamaican.

The point uncovered was that it was wrong to link 10,000 inmates to the EU debate when a great number came from countries very far removed from the EU.

I'll repeat, I've always understood where the fears around immigration come from, but on balance, I feel we should remain.


Sent from my iPhone in a non-Calde world :-(

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Yes, most people do........EU enthusiast Sir Phillip Green won the lottery by shredding BHS pensions, and paying dividends to his missus in Monaco to avoid UK tax.

His victims will have to stay here and work till they're 85 competing for living wage jobs with the hundreds of thousands arriving from all corners of the world.

#great.

I find it crazy CF, a few years ago lots of Remainers where angry with the banks for gambling away people's money, yet it is the same banks that people are clinging on to for advice on the why we should Remain. It doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[cunning fergus]

Let's be honest, immigration and the way it is handled doesn't make any sense at all. We can all see it, apart from Remain who would rather go on the advice of career politicians and flood this country with hundreds of thousands of people year after year, with absolutely no means of applying any sort of brake on it.

After June 23rd, if we Remain it is down to them. The Leavers have warned Remainers of the consequences. I suppose when the Remainers find they are pushed to the back of the queue for jobs, find it takes longer to get a doctors appointment and experience other problems, they might just wish they ticked the box to Leave when they had the opportunity.

Exactly, those who bang on about how the NHS would collapse without migrant workers are missing the point.

Those Doctors and nurses are not here on some philanthropic crusade to help British people with diabetes and obesity.

They are here because they will EARN more here than in their own countries.

Why on earth do I need to be grateful for their own selfishness, which in many cases denies a poor country a qualified health worker they have paid to train.

Mental.

 

[Maldini]

Maybe the answer is to repatriate all immigrants over the last 60/70 years!!!!!

You know you have won an argument when someone with an opposing viewpoint can only hurl childish comments.

 

[East Preston Gull]

Quite a lot here, but I don't buy the argument on democracy, the EU is patently undemocratic, in fact it has 3 Presidents, we (the people do not elect a single one).

As for the immigrants and the view that they benefit the UK I don't buy it, because it does not make sense.

Yesterday on C4 news they stated that of the 2m employed EU immigrants here 88% would not qualify to come here if non EU visa rules on jobs were applied. This means 88% were earning under 21k.

Given you need to be earning approx. 38k how can this massive cohort of migrants benefit the UK?

At best, the benefit would be that they are prepared to earn such low wages they help generate more profit for the businesses they work for.

That at least makes some sense........more profit for the rich.

This. The 10 to a bedsit we see here in Bognor in only lining the pockets of bosses and Landlords. They earn minimum wage, so will be below tax thresholds. The 2 plasterers I bump into at work go home once every 3 wks to take money home. They are building a house back home which has been paid for in 10 months of working here. Very admirable but not really helping the UK or Bognor Regis economy.

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[sir albion]

Must say I was actually really proud as I drive and spent the day around (codnor and Buxton)north Derbyshire yesterday and to see vote out banners everywhere was just a wonderful sight of real Britishness.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

77,000 people arrived from the EU without a job offer, please tell me the sense in this someone. So where do they go from here, on to our Benefits system. Wake up Remain, wake up.

 

[Maldini]

Exactly, those who bang on about how the NHS would collapse without migrant workers are missing the point.

Those Doctors and nurses are not here on some philanthropic crusade to help British people with diabetes and obesity.

They are here because they will EARN more here than in their own countries.

Why on earth do I need to be grateful for their own selfishness, which in many cases denies a poor country a qualified health worker they have paid to train.

Mental.

We don't need to train nurses and doctors.Why should we.We can just pluck them from abroad.Let's extend that to all professions.Let's just stop training people and get all our skilled workers from abroad.We already know the migrants do all the low skilled jobs because we don't want to so if migrants can do all the low skilled and highly skilled jobs it means we can just sit at home and claim benefits.Perfect.

 

[Wrong-Direction]

Yes, most people do........EU enthusiast Sir Phillip Green won the lottery by shredding BHS pensions, and paying dividends to his missus in Monaco to avoid UK tax.

His victims will have to stay here and work till they're 85 competing for living wage jobs with the hundreds of thousands arriving from all corners of the world.

#great.

What makes you think by leaving our corrupt government wouldn't carrying on screwing us? We'll all be working until we're 85 whatever happens buddy

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[drew]

You know you have won an argument when someone with an opposing viewpoint can only hurl childish comments.

It wasn't childish, it was facetious.

 

[drew]

You mean get my facts right.Does that rule apply to Mr Project Fear,Cameron also?LET'S SAY it should do.Right?

Where has anyone stated that the figures suggested about loss of jobs, lower GDP etc are actual fact rather than forecasts?

Good old BJ was bemoaning the figures the other day claiming the Leave campaign only deal with facts and then went on to claim we spend £350m a week on the EU .

 

[drew]

Exactly, those who bang on about how the NHS would collapse without migrant workers are missing the point.

Those Doctors and nurses are not here on some philanthropic crusade to help British people with diabetes and obesity.

They are here because they will EARN more here than in their own countries.

Why on earth do I need to be grateful for their own selfishness, which in many cases denies a poor country a qualified health worker they have paid to train.

Mental.

I've heard it all now.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

No the question wasn't for you, but at least you answered my question on whether people would like it or not.

Thanks; I'm pleased we agreed about women in burkas. And your thoughts on my question about what they have to do with the EU and freedom of movement?

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Thanks; I'm pleased we agreed about women in burkas. And your thoughts on my question about what they have to do with the EU and freedom of movement?

The people arriving in the EU, the ones fleeing war and the economic migrants. The majority of these people follow Islam. It stands to reason Islam will grow across the whole EU. Eventually there is the strong possiblity these people will settle and gain European Citizenship and then have access to the UK because of European Free movement. Amongst these people there will moderate and hard line followers of the religion. This means it is more than likely in this country and across the EU, we will see more women adopting the Burqa as Islam grows, it is not something I support.