[Politics] Brexit

[Buzzer]

Yes. There are a few on here who think that we should run because a few politicians want a US Of Europe.

A few politicians. That'll be Martin Schulz who until this year was President of the European Parliament. There's also Juncker, the European Commission President who is the arch-federalist in chief. Aside from the influence these people wield, that they feel confident enough to continue pushing so hard for a federal Europe shows just how much support there is for this within the EU bureaucrats and politicians.

For decades, UK attitudes to the EU have been shaped by EU obsession with political expansion and their lack of appetite for reform and tighter financial probity. They won't have it that this intransigence helped push the UK out nor will they listen when told that they are doing the same with Poland and Hungary. Their answer is always that the EU should have more control. Only last year Donald Tusk the European Council President warned his fellow federalists that they were pushing too hard and too far and to listen more to what the people of Europe want. Schulz has ignored this completely, going even further with a suggested timetable. If the federalists in charge won't listen to Tusk then what hope is there that they would listen to the concerns of a country that they all regard as the problem child of the EU?

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

It's quite ironic you feel this way when vast numbers of the population of this country feel they have been failed and abandoned by our own parliament ? As for Europe, I'm really struggling to think of anything that has been " Imposed " on me to my detriment by EU rule. I can think of far more lost benefits and opportunities handed out by my own government than by Europe. I'd love to know how you have been imposed upon.

typical i'm alright jack , wakey wakey ,maybe you need to go somewhere else in the country and view your opinions
regards
DR

 

[Gwylan]

Lord Lawson: Margaret Thatcher would be 'deeply concerned' about the Government's handling of Brexit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-thatcher-would-deeply-concerned-governments/

You bet she be pretty concerned Nigel, Maggie would be horrified we're planning to leave the biggest trading block in the world, an idea that she dreamt up

Yes, glad someone else has noticed this. The likes of the Mail, Telegraph and Spectator regular feature readers' comments along the lines of "If only we had Maggie ..." .She would be horrified at the idea of Brexit, she was the prime mover for the European Single Market. It's a totally bizarre rewriting of history

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's quite ironic you feel this way when vast numbers of the population of this country feel they have been failed and abandoned by our own parliament ? As for Europe, I'm really struggling to think of anything that has been " Imposed " on me to my detriment by EU rule. I can think of far more lost benefits and opportunities handed out by my own government than by Europe. I'd love to know how you have been imposed upon.

Agree, looking at things like individual, worker’s and consumer rights, I’d say I’ve been looked after much much more by the EU than my own governments which ever colour they are.

As an aside I really don’t have an issue with the US of E. As an internationalist I value cooperation and integration so this is the next step for me.

 

[Buzzer]

But that's a different issue, i.e. not liking what we are being asked. Fair enough voting for Brexit on that basis (although I didn't mind what we were being asked). But we never HAD to agree, so I think voting for Brexit on that basis would have been flawed logic.

Sorry but I'm really not understanding your point. We voted to join the EEC and by doing so agreed to all their rules. The only chance the UK public have had since then to say that we don't want that has been the Brexit vote. I'm struggling to see how my voting for the only thing that will give us supremacy of law is flawed.

Apologies if I'm being dim here.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Yes, glad someone else has noticed this. The likes of the Mail, Telegraph and Spectator regular feature readers' comments along the lines of "If only we had Maggie ..." .She would be horrified at the idea of Brexit, she was the prime mover for the European Single Market. It's a totally bizarre rewriting of history

For sure she would have stood up to Schulz and Juncker, not run away. The U.K. would have stood loud and proud as a driver of the single market whilst holding firm on political independence. Also she wouldn’t have stood for the integration bedwetters in the U.K.

 

[Pretty pink fairy]

Sorry but I'm really not understanding your point. We voted to join the EEC and by doing so agreed to all their rules. The only chance the UK public have had since then to say that we don't want that has been the Brexit vote. I'm struggling to see how my voting for the only thing that will give us supremacy of law is flawed.

Apologies if I'm being dim here.

you and I voted to leave and that's what is going to happen,unfortunately the few bad losers on here haven't got it in them to let go and face up to reality THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM NOT YOURS
regards
DR

 

[pb21]

Sorry but I'm really not understanding your point. We voted to join the EEC and by doing so agreed to all their rules. The only chance the UK public have had since then to say that we don't want that has been the Brexit vote. I'm struggling to see how my voting for the only thing that will give us supremacy of law is flawed.

Apologies if I'm being dim here.

I was originally under the impression that you voted for Brexit on the basis that would then mean that political decisions would be ultimately down to us. But as we always have been ultimately responsible for political decisions, to vote for Brexit to get something we already have is flawed IMO.

Of course voting for Brexit because you don't like what you are being asked is a different kettle of fish.

 

[Gwylan]

For sure she would have stood up to Schulz and Juncker, not run away. The U.K. would have stood loud and proud as a driver of the single market whilst holding firm on political independence. Also she wouldn’t have stood for the integration bedwetters in the U.K.

Well, yes, a driver for the single market, not vote to leave it. I'm not sure what you mean by 'integration bedwetters' but she was also a firm believer in extending the EU to eastern Europe - as were Major and Blair - the UK has been at the forefront of EU expansion.

Thatcher said, in 1988 "We must never forget that east of the Iron Curtain peoples who once enjoyed a full share of European culture and identity have been cut off from their roots. We shall always look on Warsaw, Prague and Budapest as great European cities." She was keen to bring these countries back into the European family - the more states the better, was the Tory view, it reduced the power of the Germany-France axis.

 

[Buzzer]

Yes, glad someone else has noticed this. The likes of the Mail, Telegraph and Spectator regular feature readers' comments along the lines of "If only we had Maggie ..." .She would be horrified at the idea of Brexit, she was the prime mover for the European Single Market. It's a totally bizarre rewriting of history

I'm not so sure that she would be horrified. Her support for the single market was economic. It was definitely not a call for huge expansion of EU political power. As you are well aware the strength of her opposition to closer political union culminated in the Bruges speech gave its name to the leading anti-federalist group in the UK. She also came to realise that the single market that she championed was not the same single market that came to be. Right up until the end of her tenure she fought against giving the EU more powers, This is her at the despatch box in 1990 giving her opinion on the expansion of the Commission and European Parliament. "No. No. No"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2f8nYMCO2I


(1 min 51 secs in)

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Yes. There are a few on here who think that we should run because a few politicians want a US Of Europe. To be true to our heritage the opposite should be true, we should be fighting to keep Europe open not closed.

It's not a 'few politicians' that wanted a US of E. Ted Heath openly admitted that it was always the aim of the project but it wasn't mentioned because the UK would never have voted to join the 'Common Market' if they had known the overall aim. The aim of the EU is, and always has been, a US of E. Problem being that they are too dishonest to make it public. Like Buzzer, that's why I voted leave - not the reasons many remainers say I voted for it like immigration or £350m to the NHS but they are too stupid to realise many people voted leave for reasons other than those two.

 

[Buzzer]

I was originally under the impression that you voted for Brexit on the basis that would then mean that political decisions would be ultimately down to us. But as we always have been ultimately responsible for political decisions, to vote for Brexit to get something we already have is flawed IMO.

Of course voting for Brexit because you don't like what you are being asked is a different kettle of fish.

Sorry but I'm still not getting it. Brexit was the only way that we could grant ourselves those powers. We currently do not have the final say in political decisions whilst in the EU.

 

[pb21]

Sorry but I'm still not getting it. Brexit was the only way that we could grant ourselves those powers. We currently do not have the final say in political decisions whilst in the EU.

We have always had the final say and could have said no at any time. It was just, IMO, not in our interest to do so, but we could have done so had we desired.

Voting to get the ultimate say when we already had it doesn't doesn't make sense to me. Parliament always had the option of leaving the EU, if it wanted.

 

[beorhthelm]

Lord Lawson: Margaret Thatcher would be 'deeply concerned' about the Government's handling of Brexit

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-thatcher-would-deeply-concerned-governments/

You bet she be pretty concerned Nigel, Maggie would be horrified we're planning to leave the biggest trading block in the world, an idea that she dreamt up

Why doesn't he just stay in his French Chateau, one of the biggest Brexit hypocrites of all

Yes, glad someone else has noticed this. The likes of the Mail, Telegraph and Spectator regular feature readers' comments along the lines of "If only we had Maggie ..." .She would be horrified at the idea of Brexit, she was the prime mover for the European Single Market. It's a totally bizarre rewriting of history

i must have slipped into a parallel universe, one where Thatcher wasn't riling against Delores and the further integration of Europe, and wasn't ousted from office by the pro-europeans in her party. in my universe Thatcher said in 1988:

...just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels.

hardly words of the prime mover for the integration we have post Maastricht. she was for the single market for trade but against all the polictical interference from Brussels.

 

[Buzzer]

Voting to get the ultimate say when we already had it doesn't doesn't make sense to me. Parliament always had the option of leaving the EU, if it wanted.

Ah. gotcha. Well yes, they could have but didn't and would never ever have done if it was just up to them. I'd argue that seizing the only opportunity I'll ever get of having a say in the matter isn't flawed logic though.

 

[Gwylan]

I'm not so sure that she would be horrified. Her support for the single market was economic. It was definitely not a call for huge expansion of EU political power. As you are well aware the strength of her opposition to closer political union culminated in the Bruges speech gave its name to the leading anti-federalist group in the UK. She also came to realise that the single market that she championed was not the same single market that came to be. Right up until the end of her tenure she fought against giving the EU more powers, This is her at the despatch box in 1990 giving her opinion on the expansion of the Commission and European Parliament. "No. No. No"
[

she was for the single market for trade but against all the polictical interference from Brussels.

That's a bit of a straw man argument. I don't doubt that she was against closer integration but she was strongly in favour of European union based around trade.

If the choice on the referendum had been between belonging to a "United States of Europe" and leaving it, I have little doubt where she'd have placed her vote.

But that wasn't the vote; the choice was staying in, or leaving, a European market that she had played a massive part in creating.

I do agree, however, that she would have been much more aggressive in standing up to the EU's bureaucrats. Although, strangely, I reckon she might have got on quite well with Juncker. He may be a Europhile but he's from a right-of-centre party (unlike Delors) and, also unlike Delors, is a bit of a boozer - he and Thatcher would have bonded over whiskies.

I certainly believe that if Thatcher had been in charge over the past decade: the EU would have given in to more of the UK's demands but I don't believe that she'd have supported leaving the EU. Never.

 

[GT49er]

That's a bit of a straw man argument. I don't doubt that she was against closer integration but she was strongly in favour of European union based around trade.

If the choice on the referendum had been between belonging to a "United States of Europe" and leaving it, I have little doubt where she'd have placed her vote.

But that wasn't the vote; the choice was staying in, or leaving, a European market that she had played a massive part in creating.

I do agree, however, that she would have been much more aggressive in standing up to the EU's bureaucrats. Although, strangely, I reckon she might have got on quite well with Juncker. He may be a Europhile but he's from a right-of-centre party (unlike Delors) and, also unlike Delors, is a bit of a boozer - he and Thatcher would have bonded over whiskies.

I certainly believe that if Thatcher had been in charge over the past decade: the EU would have given in to more of the UK's demands but I don't believe that she'd have supported leaving the EU. Never.

Yeah right - the Thatcher that threatened to go in waving her handbag, but ended up meekly signing on the EU dotted line. Pffft!

 

[Baldseagull]

Of course we had the option of leaving and I'm glad that we now have because I think Parliamentary Sovereignty is paramount. There are lots of caveats in this Guardian article and it does make a big thing of the fact that in the majority number of cases we voted in favour of EU legislation but it still shows that there are laws in place that the UK voted against or abstained from. It also shows that the UK was overwhelmingly the country most out of kilter with the rest of the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/datablog/2015/nov/02/is-uk-winner-or-loser-european-council

Difficult to judge fairly, UKIP vote against everything pretty much, and they are the majority of our MEP's. The Lib Dem and Tory MEP's would be in opposition much less. UK Government opposition to EU legislation has usually been on social and environmental aspects, one of the reasons I voted remain. Our Government would rather not have had to use EU approved testing methods to check air quality in London, it would just like to have a guess based on the number of cars, because by guessing we could say the air was within guidelines, when we had to test it, it wasn't. Our Government took the EU to court over maximum working hours legislation, even though the Governments own legal counsel advised them not to as it had been proven to be valid for health and safety of workers. Our government was forced to clean up our waterways and coastlines by an EU lawsuit, but we still pumped raw sewage into the sea for a further 5 years, we were the last nation in Europe to still do it.
We may have a record of losing the argument with the EU when we take them on, but I reckon most of us appreciate turd free beaches, fish in our rivers, being able to breathe clean air and having the right not to be worked into an early grave.

 

[Baldseagull]

Ah. gotcha. Well yes, they could have but didn't and would never ever have done if it was just up to them. I'd argue that seizing the only opportunity I'll ever get of having a say in the matter isn't flawed logic though.

As I have said before, there would need to be a referendum if there were any new treaty or amendment to an existing one, it is in UK law. So you really did not have to take a preemptive vote to leave. On that basis, would you like to remain now, and leave if the Federal thing ever comes to fruition?

 

[Baldseagull]

i must have slipped into a parallel universe, one where Thatcher wasn't riling against Delores and the further integration of Europe, and wasn't ousted from office by the pro-europeans in her party. in my universe Thatcher said in 1988:

just when those countries such as the Soviet Union, which have tried to run everything from the centre, are learning that success depends on dispersing power and decisions away from the centre, there are some in the Community who seem to want to move in the opposite direction. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state in Britain, only to see them re-imposed at a European level with a European super-state exercising a new dominance from Brussels

hardly words of the prime mover for the integration we have post Maastricht. she was for the single market for trade but against all the polictical interference from Brussels.

I believe the next line in her speech was "we want to see Europe more United with a greater sense of common purpose"

I have to ask what you think Thatcher meant by, "rolling back the frontiers of state in Britain" and why she/you think a United States of Europe would "reimpose" that?