[Politics] Brexit

[The Clamp]

The best guarator is democracy not trade, something the EU is lacking in as Mad Merkal contues to throw her weight around.

A truthful, well stated argument by Simster replied to with jingoistic hufflepuffle by you.

 

[Simster]

The Ukraine was just part of the USSR when the EEC got together, were they really better off then? Regardless, we wouldn't have been at war with our neighbours had we not been in the EU.

The Baltic states weren't part of the USSR, and nor was Cyprus in 1974. Had the Baltic states or Cyprus been in the EU at the time of conflict, I'd say the chance of any sort of war would have reduced dramatically.

 

[Simster]

The best guarator is democracy not trade, something the EU is lacking in as Mad Merkal contues to throw her weight around.

But that isn't remotely true. China is not democratic, yet is at peace with the world because it is no longer a hermit nation and wants to trade. Conversely, the USA is more democratic than most, yet has gone to war dozens of times. Angela Merkel is far from mad, she's just a bit dull (like most East German politicians).

Apart from that, lovely post Looney.

 

[The Clamp]

Jezzer really getting on to the important stuff in PMQ's.'Does the PM support the strikes at McDonalds'?

Why should he not be interested in workers rights at one of the UK'd biggest employers and one of the UK's highest turnover business's?

 

[Pavilionaire]

The Ukraine was just part of the USSR when the EEC got together, were they really better off then? Regardless, we wouldn't have been at war with our neighbours had we not been in the EU.

This is a complacent view. Conflict in the Balkans started only with the death of Tito and the demise of Yugoslavia. The Soviet Union was a relatively peaceful bloc until it started to fall apart under Yeltsin and then you have Chechnya, Ukraine etc.

You are much more likely to get peace in a region if countries are bound together by real, common ties, such as a common currency, a customs union or free movement.

We wouldn't be facing WW3 now if basket case North Korea was co-operating with South Korea and its other neighbours.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

At the end of the day, the best guarantor of peace is trade, and we have just decided to make that a lot more difficult with our closest neighbours and biggest markets.

Absolute lunacy.

We have just decided to make it easier/possible to strike our own trade deals with the fastest growing markets in the world. We also want to continue with as much free trade as possible with the EU (which is of declining importance).

The biggest recent destabilising factors in Europe both economic and political have been related to the drive for ever closer union. Continuing with or speeding up this process would be absolute lunacy.

 

[Simster]

We have just decided to make it easier/possible to strike our own trade deals with the fastest growing markets in the world. We also want to continue with as much free trade as possible with the EU (which is of declining importance).

The biggest recent destabilising factors in Europe both economic and political have been related to the drive for ever closer union. Continuing with or speeding up this process would be absolute lunacy.

Yes it will be possible to strike our own trade deals, but there is nothing to suggest it will be easier to strike favourable ones. And your "declining importance" barb is a bit disingenuous when you consider that 44% of our exports go to the EU. That is an enormous percentage of exports to countries barely a few miles away. Exactly how long do you think it will be before China, the US, Japan ever become as important to us as the EU? Decades, if ever, I'd say.

 

[Triggaaar]

The Baltic states weren't part of the USSR, and nor was Cyprus in 1974. Had the Baltic states or Cyprus been in the EU at the time of conflict, I'd say the chance of any sort of war would have reduced dramatically.

Right, so you're saying that the Baltic states and Cyprus would probably have benefited from being part of the EU. Fair enough. That doesn't mean it helped us though.

You are much more likely to get peace in a region if countries are bound together by real, common ties, such as a common currency, a customs union or free movement.

I've nothing against that concept either, but again I don't think that really applies to u

We wouldn't be facing WW3 now if basket case North Korea was co-operating with South Korea and its other neighbours.

Well obviously, but I don't see what that has to do with us and the EU?

 

[Two Professors]

Tell that to the people of Cyprus, the Baltic states, Belarus and Ukraine.

Has Cyprus managed to leave the EU before us,then?Tell us more.

 

[Simster]

Has Cyprus managed to leave the EU before us,then?Tell us more.

You misunderstand, I'm on my mobile. You'll need to re-read to establish the context in which it was written.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[Baldseagull]

Yep, one facet of collapsing civilisations is that empires break up, borders go up, brexit, trump wall are not coincidences.

I was referring to your statement that we hold all the cards, You cannot seriously believe that still?

 

[Pavilionaire]

without a referendum, how do you know there is a general consensus either way for Maastricht or Lisbon (which were both rejected at first by more pro-EU nations you will recall). the referendum we did have suggests the consensus EU is not a good thing (however flawed the campaign was, end of the day the remain camp didnt sway enough people). so what you're asking for is a referendum to reverse another one you dislike, but then never return to the questions raised ever again? how very democratic, and reminiscent of those referenda across the EU.

I have already mentioned why I believe the "Perfect Storm" of factors led to 'Leave' shading the Referendum outcome and I genuinely do believe that we've not had such a combination of factors that might have produced that same outcome in the preceding 44 years, but that is a matter of opinion.

The 2016 Referendum had too many lies, misinformation and distortions designed to deliberately mislead, and I have a real problem accepting a Leave outcome on that basis. However, if there is future Referendum where the facts are presented without an intent to deceive and the outcome was Leave then, yes, I wouldn't be happy but I'd be able to accept the UK's decision to Leave.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Yes it will be possible to strike our own trade deals, but there is nothing to suggest it will be easier to strike favourable ones. And your "declining importance" barb is a bit disingenuous when you consider that 44% of our exports go to the EU. That is an enormous percentage of exports to countries barely a few miles away. Exactly how long do you think it will be before China, the US, Japan ever become as important to us as the EU? Decades, if ever, I'd say.

The fact we can strike trade deals with countries all around the world would make us safer according to your metric. We are unlikely to strike unfavourable ones. Trade with the EU has been of declining importance for some time and is likely to continue as other markets, economies grow in significance. I seem to remember reading that Switzerland that struck it's own trade deal with China is projected to have a bigger share of trade with them than Germany in the not to distant future.

The ever closer union project has been and is the biggest threat to European stability.

 

[Two Professors]

The Baltic states weren't part of the USSR, and nor was Cyprus in 1974. Had the Baltic states or Cyprus been in the EU at the time of conflict, I'd say the chance of any sort of war would have reduced dramatically.

What Baltic states were they,then?

 

[The Clamp]

The fact we can strike trade deals with countries all around the world would make us safer according to your metric. We are unlikely to strike unfavourable ones. Trade with the EU has been of declining importance for some time and is likely to continue as other markets, economies grow in significance. I seem to remember reading that Switzerland that struck it's own trade deal with China is projected to have a bigger share of trade with them than Germany in the not to distant future.

The ever closer union project has been and is the biggest threat to European stability.

Huge claims there. None of which are backed up by evidence, links or references.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Right, so you're saying that the Baltic states and Cyprus would probably have benefited from being part of the EU. Fair enough. That doesn't mean it helped us though.

I've nothing against that concept either, but again I don't think that really applies to u

Well obviously, but I don't see what that has to do with us and the EU?

This, and your comment "Regardless, we wouldn't have been at war with our neighbours had we not been in the EU" really flies in the face of history and the track record of peaceful relations between trading bloc member states.

 

[Two Professors]

Why should he not be interested in workers rights at one of the UK'd biggest employers and one of the UK's highest turnover business's?

Surely now he wants to Remain,he should be asking questions about EU workers?Or have Labour changed back to Leave,again?

 

[Simster]

What Baltic states were they,then?View attachment 88975

Sorry, typo. I wasn't referring to the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia (which were), I was referring to the former Yugoslav republics.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

[The Clamp]

Surely now he wants to Remain,he should be asking questions about EU workers?Or have Labour changed back to Leave,again?

They are EU workers. I think what your post shows, among a few things, is that in your rush to insult Corbyn and impress yourself, you didn't realise the facts of the matter.

 

[Pavilionaire]

The fact we can strike trade deals with countries all around the world would make us safer according to your metric. We are unlikely to strike unfavourable ones. Trade with the EU has been of declining importance for some time and is likely to continue as other markets, economies grow in significance. I seem to remember reading that Switzerland that struck it's own trade deal with China is projected to have a bigger share of trade with them than Germany in the not to distant future.

The ever closer union project has been and is the biggest threat to European stability.

This ignores the fact that the EU has only recently agreed free trade deals with Canada, South Korea and Japan. The EU has also provisional free trade agreements in place with most of the African nations, Central and South America, Singapore and Vietnam. These will all come onstream in the next few years, so the UK would have been able to conduct free trade with these countries whilst still remaining in the Single Market.

By leaving we will have to negotiate them ourselves, thus missing out many years of free trade had we remained in the EU.

David Cameron's Referendum campaign was so bad he neglected to mention the plethora of free trade deals that the EU was negotiating at that time that the UK stood to benefit from, while Leave painted the EU as tying our hands and restricting our ability to get free trade deals with Non-EU countries. It is a crying shame that those deals have already been struck by the EU, but who knew??