[Politics] Brexit

[Simster]

Really, most Brexit arguments come down to this, on the BBC site today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41172505

Had the EU listened to David Cameron when he asked for concessions on immigration rules, we'd still be in the EU. Personally, I blame EU intransigence for June's vote almost as much as the lying posh Tory Brexit tossers who manipulated people's perceptions of the EU for their own ends.

We really should have had an agreement where free movement from poorer EU countries was restricted, to prevent the British working class being undercut by foreign workers. They were ignored and now we are all going to become poorer and poorer as a result.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Gained their trust! My personal view is that we've always been treated like shit by the EU (and EEC). When we got rid of CJD the French still refused to accept our beef, despite the laws that said they had to. We got screwed over by the common agricultural policy, the EU let Spain over-fish. The EU want our money and that's where their interest in us ends. Gained their ****ing trust

And in the intervening 44 years we lived in peace with our neighbours while our standard of living got a whole lot better...

 

[Triggaaar]

And in the intervening 44 years we lived in peace with our neighbours while our standard of living got a whole lot better...

As has been the case for those not in the EU.

 

[beorhthelm]

The damage isn't yet done because we're still in the EU.

Common sense dictates that there should be a referendum on whether or not to accept the final deal on offer because - for the first time - we'll actually know what voting to Leave will mean without having any of this "£350 million a week to the NHS" cake and eat it bollocks that duped enough of the electorate to swing the vote in the first place.

would you say we should have referenda for each subsequent treaty change from the EU?

 

[Pavilionaire]

Really, most Brexit arguments come down to this, on the BBC site today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41172505

Had the EU listened to David Cameron when he asked for concessions on immigration rules, we'd still be in the EU. Personally, I blame EU intransigence for June's vote almost as much as the lying posh Tory Brexit tossers who manipulated people's perceptions of the EU for their own ends.

We really should have had an agreement where free movement from poorer EU countries was restricted, to prevent the British working class being undercut by foreign workers. They were ignored and now we are all going to become poorer and poorer as a result.

There is a massive problem already in the EU with a "brain drain" from Eastern European countries to Western European countries, leaving the likes of Romania, Hungary, Poland short of skilled / semi-skilled workers. That won't necessarily change after Brexit. David Cameron should have framed his concerns about immigration in this wider context and then maybe more of the 27 would have listened at the time. Instead, his appeals were just perceived as Britain whingeing about it's own selfish concerns.

916,000 Poles in the UK - how can the Polish economy catch up with Western Europe whilst it suffers that sort of hit domestically?

 

[Simster]

As has been the case for those not in the EU.

Tell that to the people of Cyprus, the Baltic states, Belarus and Ukraine.

 

[beorhthelm]

Had the EU listened to David Cameron when he asked for concessions on immigration rules, we'd still be in the EU. Personally, I blame EU intransigence for June's vote almost as much as the lying posh Tory Brexit tossers who manipulated people's perceptions of the EU for their own ends

yes, its been recorded that key European leaders and the general Brussels opinion was we wouldn't go through with it and have a referendum. they misjudged that. they then misjudged the outcome of the referendum. so here we are and on previous form, given the British trait of sheer bloody mindedness, will the EU learn or continue its approach?

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Can anyone explain how a vote on the final deal is anything but democratic? This would be a vote for people who will have at least some understanding about what they are voting for rather than a vote based on lies and economic modelling.

There is going to be a vote on the final deal, in Parliament.

 

[Simster]

There is a massive problem already in the EU with a "brain drain" from Eastern European countries to Western European countries, leaving the likes of Romania, Hungary, Poland short of skilled / semi-skilled workers. That won't necessarily change after Brexit. David Cameron should have framed his concerns about immigration in this wider context and then maybe more of the 27 would have listened at the time. Instead, his appeals were just perceived as Britain whingeing about it's own selfish concerns.

916,000 Poles in the UK - how can the Polish economy catch up with Western Europe whilst it suffers that sort of hit domestically?

Good point, very well made. Cameron may be academically very bright, but he was also a political pygmy.

 

[Two Professors]

Jezzer really getting on to the important stuff in PMQ's.'Does the PM support the strikes at McDonalds'?

 

[Jim D]

yes, its been recorded that key European leaders and the general Brussels opinion was we wouldn't go through with it and have a referendum. they misjudged that. they then misjudged the outcome of the referendum. so here we are and on previous form, given the British trait of sheer bloody mindedness, will the EU learn or continue its approach?

With Barmy leading their negotiations they certainly won't be learning anything - in fact they want us to learn from them.

 

[Pavilionaire]

would you say we should have referenda for each subsequent treaty change from the EU?

No I wouldn't. We never had referenda with Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, whether or not to join the Euro yet there was a general consensus in this country that EU membership was a good thing.

It's only since the perfect storm of the Banking Crisis / Austerity / MPs expenses / ISIS / sizeable net out of control immigration that Leave has got any momentum, and even then it needed the £350 million a week NHS lie to get over the line.

 

[Pavilionaire]

As has been the case for those not in the EU.

Ukraine? Turkey? Balkan States? I think not.

 

[Simster]

At the end of the day, the best guarantor of peace is trade, and we have just decided to make that a lot more difficult with our closest neighbours and biggest markets.

Absolute lunacy.

 

[looney]

You still really believe that?

Yep, one facet of collapsing civilisations is that empires break up, borders go up, brexit, trump wall are not coincidences.

 

[beorhthelm]

No I wouldn't. We never had referenda with Maastricht, the Lisbon Treaty, whether or not to join the Euro yet there was a general consensus in this country that EU membership was a good thing.

without a referendum, how do you know there is a general consensus either way for Maastricht or Lisbon (which were both rejected at first by more pro-EU nations you will recall). the referendum we did have suggests the consensus EU is not a good thing (however flawed the campaign was, end of the day the remain camp didnt sway enough people). so what you're asking for is a referendum to reverse another one you dislike, but then never return to the questions raised ever again? how very democratic, and reminiscent of those referenda across the EU.

 

[Triggaaar]

Tell that to the people of Cyprus, the Baltic states, Belarus and Ukraine.

Ukraine? Turkey? Balkan States? I think not.

The Ukraine was just part of the USSR when the EEC got together, were they really better off then? Regardless, we wouldn't have been at war with our neighbours had we not been in the EU.

 

[The Clamp]

As has been the case for those not in the EU.

The working class, the poor and those in poverty in Britain benefited hugely from the EU. Make no mistake, they would not have had the assistance if we had not joined the EU. 100's of millions of pounds of investment is about to be pulled out from some of our most impoverished regions and our country's poorest are about to be set back decades.
Most don't realise this because most people have no clue as to how EU funds are allocated. Most middle class white people aren't aware of this because they don't see any of it because they don't need it.
A lot of people that receive it don't know about it because they have been brainwashed by the likes of Farage telling them foreigners have taken all their jobs and are ruining the NHS. They'll soon find out.

 

[looney]

At the end of the day, the best guarantor of peace is trade, and we have just decided to make that a lot more difficult with our closest neighbours and biggest markets.

Absolute lunacy.

The best guarator is democracy not trade, something the EU is lacking in as Mad Merkal contues to throw her weight around.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Good point, very well made. Cameron may be academically very bright, but he was also a political pygmy.

This is the key point. At no time did Cameron think like a true European. Indeed, none of Theresa May or her key Cabinets colleagues ever seem to go beyond what is in Britain's interests, or put themselves in the shoes of Juncker / Barnier and empathise with their European counterparts.

This goes to the heart of why the 48% are so upset. Many of the 48% feel part of an EU community, and these feelings come from working, socialising and interacting with other EU nationals.

Brexit is a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Some sensible EU-wide restrictions on settlement could have killed this issue stone dead, and history will judge the EU's failure to grasp the nettle as a major error.