[Politics] Brexit

[Deleted member 22389]

You can call me a stereotyper but that's the facts for many, the boomers and war babies have had it good and are taking more out than they ever put in, and after being sheltered from the GFC whilst many have suffered, they are now sheltered again against from the consequences of Brexit, at least in the short to medium term

Now I'm not saying I blame this generation for being in such a fortuitous situation, but given the opportunity to vote on something that doesn't really effect them, they should at least be grateful for what you've had, or should have listened to their kids or grand kids what they think.

In the case of my own parents, both myself and my two sisters made our feelings known, none of us wanted out, but they ignored us. One deeply regrets it, the other is starting to

My mum worked for 50 years, she never claimed a single penny in benefits, same with my dad who passed away in 2004. My mum deserves every single fing penny from this government and my dad's work pension too. My mum is 82 years old and only stopped working three years ago, her final job was a toilet cleaner sometimes she had to clean excrement off the walls, so please stop being so rude about old people. Going to be a sad day when these people pass away, because one thing they have that we lack now is respect and manners.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

My mum worked for 50 years, she never claimed a single penny in benefits, same with my dad who passed away in 2004. My mum deserves every single fing penny from this government and my dad's work pension too. My mum is 82 years old and only stopped working three years ago, her final job was a toilet cleaner sometimes she had to clean excrement off the walls, so please stop being so rude about old people. Going to be a sad day when these people pass away, because one thing they have that we lack now is respect and manners.

You are missing the point being made.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

You are missing the point being made.

I'm not missing any points, wish people would stop this hating towards old people. We had it before the election with sad fing campaigns forcing your grand parents to vote Labour and so on, treating them like bloody idiots. We know times have changed, so you got to make the best of what you got and get off your backside, because there are people in other countries that have absolutely bugger all.

 

[The Clamp]

I'm not missing any points, wish people would stop this hating towards old people. We had it before the election with sad fing campaigns forcing your grand parents to vote Labour and so on, treating them like bloody idiots. We know times have changed, so you got to make the best of what you got and get off your backside, because there are people in other countries that have absolutely bugger all.

Using old people and the less fortunate to add credibility to your small mindedness is pretty base, even for you.

 

[Two Professors]

Sovereignty. He could not articulate what that meant and could not explain what exactly we had lost. His partner said she voted out because the language in the local primary school was predominantly Urdu. I said "what part of the EU do Urdu speakers come from?" And got an infamous reply "they are all the same"

No one made decision based on racism though. Not a single one.

Oh,you know Nick031's mum well enough to know she voted out cos of Urdu speakers?You spout so much rubbish it's like listening to gregbrighton when he had taken his medication!

 

[JC Footy Genius]

You seem to be operating under a misunderstanding that we are all on either side of a national debate whereby there are people with different points of view that should be considered and respected. But you're wrong, because Leaver's opinions are misinformed and your views on the topic come from reading shit sources that you don't bother to examine because they immediately agree with your world view. A lot of leavers on this forum think we're debating on a quid pro quo type situation, where every source or lets say "evidence" a leaver puts up is somehow of equal value to the sources from the remain camp. The problem is that it's easy for anyone with a modicum of intelligence to check the sources on both sides and find out which ones stand up to scrutiny, and which ones don't. Let me teach you a lesson......

Let's go with remain first. Let's find a remain article to scrutinise. A quick google of the keywords "Guardian" and "immigration" allows you to find this article about the detrimental effects of reduced immigration on the labour pool.....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/19/uk-needs-more-immigrants-to-avoid-brexit-catastrophe

The article claims that labour shortages and an ageing population means that the UK is going to need to INCREASE inwards migration by 200,000 a year. This will already have most of you leavers frothing at the mouth, some of whom will attempt to discredit the article within seconds of reading the headline before they've even read the article (red flag there for the guys who do this). Let's check their sources. Well they've put a link to their source so that's immediately handy. It's this report by a group called Global Future. So, my first reaction here is "who the hell are they?" Let's check em out...

http://ourglobalfuture.com/about-us/

Ok, so they're a "global think tank" but they clearly aren't impartial based on their homepage. Black mark for them there but hey-ho let's read the article and check their sources....Ok they've given us 17 references for their article. Some don't stand up too well, the first reference is to another article they wrote before this one. However, some of the others seem legit, let's list them:

ONS (Office of National Statistics)
OBR (Office of Budget Responsibility)
An academic paper by a professor of economics which itself has a detailed list of references - http://data.parliament.uk/writtenev...fairs-committee/immigration/written/45077.pdf
An academic paper regarding the effects of immigration in the US, again with it's own list of references - http://www.nber.org/papers/w15507
A survey from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors
A report from the Construction Industry Training Board
This government report from the UK Commission for Employment and Skills - https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...allenges-in-the-health-and-social-care-sector
This report from The Migration Observatory at The University of Oxford - http://www.migrationobservatory.ox....-older-people-and-demand-for-migrant-workers/
This report from the Royal College of Nursing regarding the amount of EU nationals in the nursing sector - https://my.rcn.org.uk/__data/assets...pation_Lists_for_the_UK_and_for_Scotland..pdf
This government report from The House of Lords regarding long term sustainability of the NHS - https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldnhssus/151/151.pdf
A report for the British Hospitality Association regarding labour migration in the hospitality sector - https://dip9shwvohtcn.cloudfront.ne...igration-in-the-hospitality-sector-report.pdf
There was also a link to a report by the National Farmers Union regarding shortages in the labour market but that link doesn't appear to be working anymore.

Ok I think I've made my point. Most of those references also have their own list of references that can be checked which basically opens up a rabbit hole of other scientific papers to read on the subject if you wanted to take it further.

Now, lets have a look at a leave article regarding the same topic. A similar google search for the Express and immigration lead me to this little gem........

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/ex...tion-awful-British-workers-migration-pensions

EU immigration has been an economic catastrophe costing us 30 BILLION pounds a year apparently. Well my alarm bells are already ringing, that seems a huge amount there must be some pretty solid evidence backing this one up...let's check it.

Ok cool, this article is citing a source. This time another think tank called Global Britain. For some reason they declined to provide a direct link to the evidence provided by this think tank but I'm sure that was just an oversight. Let's see if we can find it ourselves on the Global Britain site.......

http://globalbritain.co.uk/

Ok well this clearly isn't an impartial group. I'll hold up my hands, the Guardian article source clearly wasn't either but compared to these guys....woah. They better have a pretty solid list of references on their article about EU immigrants costing us 30 billion quid a year. Let's find it..........wait.......mmmmmmm.........well I've reached a dead end already. Can't find the specific article The Express is talking about. They have a number of articles all offering up evidence that leaving the EU is the bees knees though so let's pick one...How about this "report" about how we're better off with NO deal than a bad deal.....

http://globalbritain.co.uk/wp-conte...he-single-market-is-failing-britain-Final.pdf

This looks very high brow doesn't it? Like the Guardian source it's full of graphs and statistics and stuff. I hope their references stand up to scrutiny......Errrr wait a minute. There are no references. All there is a section "about the authors" who are these two guys who are two of the three members that make up this "think tank". It's basically a summary of these guys' "Linked In" page showing how they really are experts honestly because (as an example) one of them "worked for major investment banks as a Strategist (capital S?)".

But wait a minute.......What the hell is THIS?!?!?!?!......

View attachment 88456

They've had to add a DISCLAIMER to the bottom of their piece of cutting edge research that proves that NO deal is better than a bad deal. I particularly liked the part that says "Although the information compiled in our research is produced to the best of our ability, its accuracy is not guaranteed. Any persons using Global Britain research or communication material does so solely at their own risk and Global Britain and their publisher shall be under no liability whatsoever in respect thereof.

Why would they have to add such a disclaimer to their articles (in small print that I had to blow up to read)? I'll tell you why. Because IT'S COMPLETE AND TOTAL BOBBINS!

So the Express article claims that EU migrants cost us 30 billion a year, claims an article by this Global Britain as a source, doesn't link to said article. Said article can't be found on the Global Britain site but a quick delve into one of their other "reports" finds a report with no references and a disclaimer which is tantamount to meaning "yeah all this may not actually be true, don't quote us on it".

So there you have it. This is why you lot posting up pro-brexit articles from charlatans like The Express in some kind of quid pro quo attempt to counter the remain sources (most of which have government sponsored reports by experts backing them up) displays your complete lack of critical thinking skills with regards to articles that instantly agree with your point of view. It just takes a few clicks of a mouse and a bit of googling to check these things yet for some reason you DON'T DO IT!

Cognitive Dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling I understand but you really need to get through it. Stop reading this shit and start looking at articles that provide evidence and references for their claims. It's your lack of ability to do this that has us branding you thickos. It's why I have most of you on ignore, the ones that can't think critically are worse than the out and out confessed racists like PPF (who I don't have a problem with and admire his honesty). Most of you others are not only lying to us, you're lying to yourselves as well.

Wake up.

Hope you didn't spend too much time on that. Lecturing about a lack of critical thinking then producing an argument that would be lucky to get a D grade in that discipline is very amusing. If you start with this ...

... you can probably draw up a lengthy list of the flaws/fallacies/appeals in your post.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I'm not missing any points, wish people would stop this hating towards old people. We had it before the election with sad fing campaigns forcing your grand parents to vote Labour and so on, treating them like bloody idiots. We know times have changed, so you got to make the best of what you got and get off your backside, because there are people in other countries that have absolutely bugger all.

This has nothing to do with the point which was made and which I agree with.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Hope you didn't spend too much time on that. Lecturing about a lack of critical thinking then producing an argument that would be lucky to get a D grade in that discipline is very amusing. If you start with this ...

... you can probably draw up a lengthy list of the flaws/fallacies/appeals in your post.

Go on then.

 

[Two Professors]

All healthcare costs can be reclaimed from the EU national's country of origin. So, if a Pole gets hospital treatment in the UK, we can reclaim the costs from the Polish government. There's no "looking into it" - it's the system already.

No they cannot.That is absolute rubbish.Most countries in the area covered only allow some costs to be recovered.Your own travel insurance is also required.

 

[The Clamp]

Hope you didn't spend too much time on that. Lecturing about a lack of critical thinking then producing an argument that would be lucky to get a D grade in that discipline is very amusing. If you start with this ...

... you can probably draw up a lengthy list of the flaws/fallacies/appeals in your post.

Are you able to expand on your comments?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Are you able to expand on your comments?

Of course he isn't. He has been totally blown out of the water and owned by ML and his only reply is a cheap and vacuous retort.

 

[The Clamp]

Of course he isn't. He has been totally blown out of the water and owned by Berty and his only reply is a cheap and vacuous retort.

Agreed. A pathetic retort to a brilliant post.

 

[Two Professors]

A fantastic post that I fear won't be read by those that need to read it the most. Except maybe Pastafarian who will read it and call you a liar.
However, best post on here for a very long time. I urge the Brexit thickos to give it a read.

While I refute your usual insults,I have read it.No matter how many marvelous people and organisations have contributed,it is still guesswork,no matter how educated and erudite.Experts have been shown to be wrong so often over the last decade that I despair for the education system that let them down.Remain Thickos,indeed!

 

[Mental Lental]

Hope you didn't spend too much time on that. Lecturing about a lack of critical thinking then producing an argument that would be lucky to get a D grade in that discipline is very amusing. If you start with this ...

... you can probably draw up a lengthy list of the flaws/fallacies/appeals in your post.

Oh feck off you cretin. Didn't even attempt to address any of the points I made you just claimed you "can probably" draw up a lengthy list of flaws blah blah blah. Oh no but wait all you actually did was post a shitty meme and a dunce emoji.

So we're back to calling each other names again and the cycle never stops. Ok well I was down with that before, in fact I think I called one of you a windowlicker and it seemed to scratch a nerve so I'll continue down that road since you don't have anything else to say. Here's how I feel when I read another round of ill informed drivel from your lot.....

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Oh feck off you cretin. Didn't even attempt to address any of the points I made you just claimed you "can probably" draw up a lengthy list of flaws blah blah blah. Oh no but wait all you actually did was post a shitty meme and a dunce emoji.

So we're back to calling each other names again and the cycle never stops. Ok well I was down with that before, in fact I think I called one of you a windowlicker and it seemed to scratch a nerve so I'll continue down that road since you don't have anything else to say. Here's how I feel when I read another round of ill informed drivel from your lot.....

View attachment 88466

Blimey you can't even read a post accurately let alone identify the numerous flaws. Let's start with the letter A - assumptions.

Q1 When have I ever linked or quoted the Express? (you are probably the first person who has for ages)

Q2 How do you know I don't check sources before quoting/linking them?

Q3 How do you know all leavers views are misinformed?

 

[Mental Lental]

Blimey you can't even read a post accurately let alone identify the numerous flaws. Let's start with the letter A - assumptions.

Q1 When have I ever linked or quoted the Express? (you are probably the first person who has for ages)

Q2 How do you know I don't check sources before quoting/linking them?

Q3 How do you know all leavers views are misinformed?

Q3 I answered at length in my big post. That was the purpose of the post in fact....Explaining exactly why and how leavers are misinformed, because they don't check the veracity of the sources quoted by the pro-Brexit press. You seemed to have missed that one.

Your other questions are irrelevant as you're talking about your own personal posts which I don't really take much notice of to be honest. You say you DO check sources and don't quote the Express? Bully for you, maybe you could try and persuade your Brexit mates to do the same.

 

[GT49er]

All healthcare costs can be reclaimed from the EU national's country of origin. So, if a Pole gets hospital treatment in the UK, we can reclaim the costs from the Polish government.

You are obviously sitting in the false comfort zone that assumes that the payments will always be made. In this case, truly ignorance is bliss.

 

[Jim in the West]

You are obviously sitting in the false comfort zone that assumes that the payments will always be made. In this case, truly ignorance is bliss.

As has been inferred elsewhere, the main reason we don't reclaim all the costs is through our own administrative inefficiency. Unfortunately, some prefer to blame the EU (as - in their minds - every ill that the UK suffers is the fault of the nasty EU). If we bothered to properly resource the relevant administrative functions we could have the same levels of control over EU foreign nationals as many other countries in the EU already have. Rather than put our own house in order, the likes of Mrs May prefer to point fingers at other - far more efficient - countries. It's embarrassing.

 

[mikeyjh]

Hope you didn't spend too much time on that. Lecturing about a lack of critical thinking then producing an argument that would be lucky to get a D grade in that discipline is very amusing. If you start with this ...

... you can probably draw up a lengthy list of the flaws/fallacies/appeals in your post.

One of you posted a quite objective post, took the time to research and post his/her findings and opinions. The other posted a picture of a book and a smilie in a dunce's hat. I guess we all know who was won that particular debate.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Q3 I answered at length in my big post. That was the purpose of the post in fact....Explaining exactly why and how leavers are misinformed, because they don't check the veracity of the sources quoted by the pro-Brexit press. You seemed to have missed that one.

Your other questions are irrelevant as you're talking about your own personal posts which I don't really take much notice of to be honest. You say you DO check sources and don't quote the Express? Bully for you, maybe you could try and persuade your Brexit mates to do the same.

You chose to compare one article from the Express and one from the Guardian which supported your pov then extrapolated out making numerous sweeping unfounded generalisations. Expect I could find a poorly sourced Mirror article and compare it to a well sourced Telegraph article.. would that mean all Remainers are misinformed? On the wider point I doubt many people really go in depth and back check articles in newspapers or any other news sources. Especialy If they agree with it.

For some reason when you made numerous you, your references eg 'your views on the topic come from reading shit sources' I thought you were talking about my personal posts.

As I said you are probably the first person to quote the Express in this thread for months.