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[Politics] Brexit

If there was a second Brexit referendum how would you vote?


  • Total voters
    1,099


Jim in the West

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 13, 2003
4,952
Way out West
If you still have faith in this government's competency, I suggest you read this (in the interests of balance, I should warn Leavers that this is from today's FT...so you may suspect it comes with an agenda. However, I think many (whether Leavers or Remainers) are beginning to recognise that things are completely dysfunctional at the moment. It surely can't last....).

A turf war is under way between the different ministries competing to shape Brexit, with the process more Balkanised and uncoordinated since June’s election, according to senior civil servants. Two weeks after the UK began formal negotiations to leave the EU, the cabinet is deeply divided over what Britain’s goals should be. Meanwhile, the departure of the prime minister Theresa May’s chiefs of staff, Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill, has left a power vacuum in Downing Street. “Nick and Fi exercised a stranglehold over Brexit policy which constricted discussion and meant many Brexit issues were never properly discussed between departments,” said one leading civil servant. “Now that they have gone, it’s a relief. But the way in which they hounded ministers and officials meant many issues were never properly thought through in a collaborative way.”

Another official said: “We have got to a stage where a lot of key questions on Brexit still need to be properly thrashed out in conversations. For example, we have not had a detailed discussion across departments about what the impact of leaving the single market will be for specific sectors of the UK economy. This has to change.” As the battle across Whitehall begins, the Department for International Trade, led by Liam Fox, announced last week it will begin talks on a US-UK trade deal in Washington on July 24, as it tries to underscore its importance. But Philip Hammond, the chancellor, and business secretary Greg Clark are pushing for a transition deal that maintains current trading relations with the EU, even if that means Mr Fox will be unable to strike trade deals in the meantime.

Treasury officials have written an unpublished paper which challenges the DIT to prove it can line up free trade agreements with non-EU countries that can outweigh the loss of European trade associated with leaving the customs union. Mr Hammond is likely to use the findings of that paper later this year to press home his case for staying close to the customs union. Some are critical of the role played by the Department for Exiting the EU (Dexeu). “Dexeu is supposed to be a secretariat drawing together a common Whitehall position on Brexit,” said one official. “But the central problem we face is that Dexeu is also a department whose lead minister [Davis] has a strong view of what Brexit should look like. It is both a player and a referee and it can’t be both.

”Some senior figures remain particularly critical of what they say is the secretive role played by Olly Robbins, the permanent secretary at Dexeu who is also the prime minister’s chief Sherpa at the Brexit negotiations. “Olly keeps too much of our negotiating position in his head and that isn’t helpful,” said one official. Another agreed, adding: “That has certainly been the problem for much of the last year. Excessive secrecy is one of the reasons why the [EU] Commission is now far better organised at every level than we are.” Even inside Dexeu, there is unease about how Mr Robbins manages his dual role, reporting to Mr Davis and to Mrs May. “It can get very confused,” says one departmental figure. “Sometimes Olly has sent papers up to Number 10 which David Davis doesn’t get to see. Sometimes Nick Timothy would get sent papers from Olly that nobody else did.” One official noted that Lord Bridges, a former Dexeu minister who resigned earlier this month, was kept out of the loop. “He was not allowed to see cabinet papers on Brexit, even though he was defending policy in the Lords.”
 




Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
Ah here we go ... all positive economic data after referendum vote was dismissed/ignored because we haven't left yet all bad economic data is because of Brexit. :cool:

You will recall that anything positive after the referendum was taken as proof of Project Fear and that anyone drawing attention now to the inevitable, predicted and increasing downturn is accused of gloom and doom-mongering, etc, etc.
 


JC Footy Genius

Bringer of TRUTH
Jun 9, 2015
10,568
You will recall that anything positive after the referendum was taken as proof of Project Fear and that anyone drawing attention now to the inevitable, predicted and increasing downturn is accused of gloom and doom-mongering, etc, etc.

I recall the positive economic data after the referendum was concrete proof that the Project Fear predictions regarding the immediate consequences of voting leave (recession, mass unemployment) were a load of old doo doo. Nice to see so many old faces flocking back to the thread now the indicators look less promising though. I might end my FT/Times subscription as most of the articles are appearing on here for free :D
 


Kinky Gerbil

Im The Scatman
NSC Patron
Jul 16, 2003
58,792
hassocks
One of the masterminds behind the Brexit vote has performed an astonishing U-turn by admitting that leaving the EU may be “an error”.

Dominic Cummings, the Vote Leave campaign director, described the referendum as a “dumb idea” before other ideas had been tried to win back powers from Brussels. He has also warned that Brexit is shaping up to be a “guaranteed debacle”, without big changes in Whitehall to deliver a successful negotiation.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...u-error-nhs-350-million-lie-bus-a7822386.html

LOL
 


Garry Nelson's teacher

Well-known member
May 11, 2015
5,257
Bloody Worthing!
Whatever the right and wrongs of Brexit (and I am a Remainer) surely there has to be an acknowledgement by even the most one-eyed Brexiteer that the calibre of those driving the process (Davis, Fox, Johnson) is scarily, woefully lacking. Looking at Foxy on Question Time from Hastings was to see a bloke totally out of his depth.
 




CHAPPERS

DISCO SPENG
Jul 5, 2003
45,094
Jeremy (C)Hunt has been defending his document on twitter. Badly.

[tweet]882222631889534976[/tweet]

Click on tweet for reaction to that.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,701
The Fatherland
Whatever the right and wrongs of Brexit (and I am a Remainer) surely there has to be an acknowledgement by even the most one-eyed Brexiteer that the calibre of those driving the process (Davis, Fox, Johnson) is scarily, woefully lacking. Looking at Foxy on Question Time from Hastings was to see a bloke totally out of his depth.

The EU must be frustrated as well. How can you negotiate with this shower? It's men against boys.
 


Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
One of the masterminds behind the Brexit vote has performed an astonishing U-turn by admitting that leaving the EU may be “an error”.

Dominic Cummings, the Vote Leave campaign director, described the referendum as a “dumb idea” before other ideas had been tried to win back powers from Brussels. He has also warned that Brexit is shaping up to be a “guaranteed debacle”, without big changes in Whitehall to deliver a successful negotiation.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...u-error-nhs-350-million-lie-bus-a7822386.html

LOL

Oh this is just great. A Brexit campaign leader admitting that the Leave campaign was a dumb idea that only persuaded the gullible because of a lie as revelations emerge that the government's Brexit policy has been throttled by a couple of power-crazed advisers, who have gone, and a civil servant called Olly, who hasn't. The 'debacle' (not a remainer's description) slowly unfolds, or possibly unwraps, and still the devotees sing its praises.
 




Lincoln Imp

Well-known member
Feb 2, 2009
5,964
I recall the positive economic data after the referendum was concrete proof that the Project Fear predictions regarding the immediate consequences of voting leave (recession, mass unemployment) were a load of old doo doo. Nice to see so many old faces flocking back to the thread now the indicators look less promising though. I might end my FT/Times subscription as most of the articles are appearing on here for free :D

By inserting the word 'immediate' you appear to be saying that there was nothing wrong with Project Fear apart from its timing. Your reference to 'indicators looking less promising' is masterful.
 


Jim in the West

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Sep 13, 2003
4,952
Way out West
I recall the positive economic data after the referendum was concrete proof that the Project Fear predictions regarding the immediate consequences of voting leave (recession, mass unemployment) were a load of old doo doo. Nice to see so many old faces flocking back to the thread now the indicators look less promising though. I might end my FT/Times subscription as most of the articles are appearing on here for free :D

I will continue to keep you updated (although I only have an FT subscription - others can provide stuff from the Times). Incidentally, if you're only interested in a small number of articles, this is a good place (apart from NSC) to go:

https://behindthepaywallblog.wordpress.com
 






nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
18,574
Gods country fortnightly
I recall the positive economic data after the referendum was concrete proof that the Project Fear predictions regarding the immediate consequences of voting leave (recession, mass unemployment) were a load of old doo doo. Nice to see so many old faces flocking back to the thread now the indicators look less promising though. I might end my FT/Times subscription as most of the articles are appearing on here for free :D

The consequences were not necessarily immediate, you don't just get an instant recession and rising unemployment. There is typically a 12-18 month lag, I thought you'd be better informed as a subscriber to the FT
 


portslade seagull

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2003
17,949
portslade
The consequences were not necessarily immediate, you don't just get an instant recession and rising unemployment. There is typically a 12-18 month lag, I thought you'd be better informed as a subscriber to the FT

That's not what all the remainers said. It was an instant recession and economic doom straight after the vote. Your all now changing to a more long term view seeing that you were all so wide of the mark
 


nicko31

Well-known member
Jan 7, 2010
18,574
Gods country fortnightly
That's not what all the remainers said. It was an instant recession and economic doom straight after the vote. Your all now changing to a more long term view seeing that you were all so wide of the mark

So are you happy with the way things are heading right now. I'm keeping powder dry, camping with kids this summer, we're in for a bumpy ride
 




vegster

Sanity Clause
May 5, 2008
28,273
JC Footy Genius;8006624[B said:
]I recall the positive economic data after the referendum was concrete proof that the Project Fear predictions regarding the immediate consequences of voting leave (recession, mass unemployment) were a load of old doo doo[/B]. Nice to see so many old faces flocking back to the thread now the indicators look less promising though. I might end my FT/Times subscription as most of the articles are appearing on here for free :D

Maybe you should think back, the collapse of the Pound against the Dollar and Euro in the first few days of the Brexit result might just have been the catalyst for the whole dirty snowball of economic problems and uncertainties that we now have, don't you think ? It all leads to higher costs which eventually have to be passed on to the customer and that's our problem now.
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,701
The Fatherland
The consequences were not necessarily immediate, you don't just get an instant recession and rising unemployment. There is typically a 12-18 month lag, I thought you'd be better informed as a subscriber to the FT

I imagine it's hard to read the FT if your head is permanently in the sand?
 


Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,701
The Fatherland
That's not what all the remainers said. It was an instant recession and economic doom straight after the vote. Your all now changing to a more long term view seeing that you were all so wide of the mark

Why don't you just admit you were wrong?
 






Herr Tubthumper

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 11, 2003
62,701
The Fatherland
I believeit should be the other way round don't you think ?

No. From where I'm standing I see nothing but total chaos, instability and weakness. I cannot see how this looks like a rosy future. Feel free to explain why you feel optimistic though.
 




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