[Politics] Brexit

[Deleted member 22389]

EU membership has not suppressed wages.

Free movement generates economic growth which creates jobs for the working class.

We need to be able to control the numbers of people that want to come here, the EU would never allow that, which is why we voted Leave in the first place.

We also need proper jobs in manufacturing again to provide some balance. The service industry will never provide the jobs, training and more importantly the wages required to feed a family.

The country also worked far better when we had less people, we had a better quality of life for starters, we where not being squashed in like a tin of sardines.

 

[pastafarian]

OK, here is an independent think tank's take on the issue......

http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/files/hatecrimethefactsbehindtheheadlines.pdf

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civitas_(think_tank)

In short nothing to see here.......

That independent report on hate crime certainly puts events into realistic context.
I notice since it was compiled investigations by the Police into the death of that poor Polish bloke have gone through process and are concluded, and even though some sections of the media went into an initial frenzy saying it was a hate crime and some on here continue to claim falsely it was(quite recently), the CPS have decided not to prosecute the case as a hate crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/01/boy-15-charged-with-killing-of-polish-man-in-harlow.

Must be gutting for those who love to promote hate where it doesn’t exist.

Reminds me of some Tim Booth lyrics

We can cross the race divide
Bridge a gap that wasn't really there

 

[pastafarian]

Idea for a bus. "Let's spend £60bn trashing our reputation, destroying the Union, cutting trade with our neighbours and celebrating racism".

Quote from Jolyon Maugham QC


Let's see if Philip Hammond follows this advice with his fighting fund for Brexit costs

He sounds like a right turd. The typical type of sewer rat that adds the racism card when his arguments are wafer thin.
You must agree with him by posting his tweet on here and weirdly not questioning his racist allegation.(have any remainers questioned that part of it yet, their silence would indicate they agree?)
Are you happy with his allegation? Or just content to let it sit out there?
Cant see how we are celebrating racism but no doubt you or another remainer will be along shortly and able to explain how we are……wont you?

 

[pastafarian]

We need to be able to control the numbers of people that want to come here, the EU would never allow that, which is why we voted Leave in the first place.

Some just don’t get it, the majority of countries control who enters. People in this country want controls on immigration (75% according to polls). This EU experiment of freedom of movement is flawed and deeply unpopular across Europe.
The denial of this unpopularity amongst Europhiles is leading to the complete death of The EU social experiment. Should have stuck to a trade agreement amongst friends and not vastly expanding into territory where you steal national sovereignty.

 

[pastafarian]

EU membership has not suppressed wages.

Free movement generates economic growth which creates jobs for the working class.

Pre referendum debate issues.

you need to realise we are leaving and the discussion is how we leave.......stop living in the past.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Some interesting leaks about the budget. The chancellor will be building up a war chest to pay for Brexit paid for by tax hikes for the self-employed. See, we told you, we knew you'd pay for it some how. Who's self employed on here then?

 

[Soulman]

Some interesting leaks about the budget. The chancellor will be building up a war chest to pay for Brexit paid for by tax hikes for the self-employed. See, we told you, we knew you'd pay for it some how. Who's self employed on here then?

Me. Don't worry.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Me. Don't worry.

I know we don't always see eye to eye but my door is always open to everyone, that's the socialist in me. We need good electricians as much as anyone else. Drop me a line when you are priced out of the uk and I'll see what I can do.

I have also noticed you posted on the music thread, we have some commonality.

In solidarity, Herr Tubthumper.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

I know we don't always see eye to eye but my door is always open to everyone, that's the socialist in me. We need good electricians as much as anyone else. Drop me a line when you are priced out of the uk and I'll see what I can do.

I have also noticed you posted on the music thread, we have some commonality.

In solidarity, Herr Tubthumper.

Some UK Electricians are already priced out because of people from the EU doing these jobs cheaper, it doesn't work the other way round thou does it. There is one downside to free movement. Its alright for people like Junker and his pals, our own politicians on nice salaries, free movement has zero impact on their jobs, or their ability to find a job. You don't see their jobs shipped out to the lowest bidders, put in the hands of job agencies.

Also for all the standards the EU likes to impose there are absolutely zero standards when it comes to training and quality of work. My brother in law is also an electrician, he said he turns up on some sites and the quality of work is terrible.

Another joke is this CE stamp on products, people now get confused between that and the EU CE standard stamp. CE on some products now mean China Export so we don't know what the **** we are buying anymore, and whether thate item is going to fry when you plug it in.

The list goes on. Glad we voted Leave.

 

[Soulman]

I know we don't always see eye to eye but my door is always open to everyone, that's the socialist in me. We need good electricians as much as anyone else. Drop me a line when you are priced out of the uk and I'll see what I can do.

I have also noticed you posted on the music thread, we have some commonality.

In solidarity, Herr Tubthumper.

Thanks for your patronising reply. We shall see, your record on predictions etc is at best normally incorrect, at worst, laughable.

 

[Soulman]

Some UK Electricians are already priced out because of people from the EU doing these jobs cheaper, it doesn't work the other way round thou does it. There is one downside to free movement. Its alright for people like Junker and his pals, our own politicians on nice salaries, free movement has zero impact on their jobs, or their ability to find a job. You don't see their jobs shipped out to the lowest bidders, put in the hands of job agencies.

Also for all the standards the EU likes to impose there are absolutely zero standards when it comes to training and quality of work. My brother in law is also an electrician, he said he turns up on some sites and the quality of work is terrible.

Another joke is this CE stamp on products, people now get confused between that and the EU CE standard stamp. CE on some products now mean China Export so we don't know what the **** we are buying anymore, and whether thate item is going to fry when you plug it in.

The list goes on. Glad we voted Leave.

Good post. HT knows best though re the electrical trade.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Some just don’t get it, the majority of countries control who enters. People in this country want controls on immigration (75% according to polls). This EU experiment of freedom of movement is flawed and deeply unpopular across Europe.
The denial of this unpopularity amongst Europhiles is leading to the complete death of The EU social experiment. Should have stuck to a trade agreement amongst friends and not vastly expanding into territory where you steal national sovereignty.

They will never get it, because the truth is it doesn't effect them. Germany is probably twice the size of the UK and has about the same numbers of people. Their quality of life is probably so much better than ours, but that is now going to change massively because of what Merkel did. Germans will find out soon enough what a bad mistake that was, which is already being proved in Merkels own popularity ratings.

 

[studio150]

Some UK Electricians are already priced out because of people from the EU doing these jobs cheaper, it doesn't work the other way round thou does it. There is one downside to free movement. Its alright for people like Junker and his pals, our own politicians on nice salaries, free movement has zero impact on their jobs, or their ability to find a job. You don't see their jobs shipped out to the lowest bidders, put in the hands of job agencies.

Also for all the standards the EU likes to impose there are absolutely zero standards when it comes to training and quality of work. My brother in law is also an electrician, he said he turns up on some sites and the quality of work is terrible.

Another joke is this CE stamp on products, people now get confused between that and the EU CE standard stamp. CE on some products now mean China Export so we don't know what the **** we are buying anymore, and whether thate item is going to fry when you plug it in.

The list goes on. Glad we voted Leave.

So you would be happy for higher prices to the consumer and a cartel so that no electrican loses out on work due to price as they would all be charging the same.

No one would disagree on quality of work thresholds but I thought we lived in a free market country.

 

[daveinprague]

There is a shortage of skilled electricians in the UK, so frankly, I dont believe people are being priced out by cheaper prices from EU citizens in the UK.

Do you have any verification for your claims about this?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Thanks for your patronising reply. We shall see, your record on predictions etc is at best normally incorrect, at worst, laughable.

It wasn't meant to be patronising. I was actually trying to be friendly.

 

[cunning fergus]

ALTERNATIVE FACT.

Below is the Lincoln Imp question, and your answer (with salient points in bold) to which I believe he was referring, it was Post 24517, made on 6/1/2017, in this thread, if you wish to check the .......FACTS for yourself and ensure I am quoting, without addition or subtraction.



Quote Originally Posted by Lincoln Imp
A question, and it's a genuine one, why does a free market across more than one country offend your socialist principles more than a free market within one political boundary? (I thought that it might be because it is bigger but that can't be the reason because then you would regard large countries as being less socialist than small ones, all things being equal, to coin a phrase.) Leading on from the first question, do you similarly object to the free market within the UK and would like to see it ended?

As I say, I ask the questions without rancour. A reply along similar lines would be appreciated.



Free unfettered markets and/or lassiez faire governance, is the ideology of Tories (and classical liberals), and history has proven many times that without state interference and/or control disaster is just around the corner.

Therefore with the gift of hindsight I am against free markets, and politically speaking I am against free markets. The freedom of labour is the worst example of this because quite evidently not being able to manage supply and demand is disastrous. It's disastrous for workers pay, its disastrous for a government to manage state assets, like housing, education, healthcare etc. Politicians in this country can say it's not so, many of the 17m who voted leave no different.

Therefore my view would apply within a state or as with the EU across a group of states, it makes no difference.

The EU is an unashamed pro free market capitalist institution, its why (say) re nationalising the Royal Mail or Railways is not allowed within its competition laws.

Even when the EU does protectionism, like the CAP its in the interests of the producer not the consumers, and therefore indefensible.

The sooner the whole cabal collapses the better.

I see.

So here is a post where I am reinforcing my view that I am against free unfettered markets, and lassiez faire capitalism, all perfectly clear as far as I am concerned. We know full well that the last global financial crisis was a consequence of weak regulation primarily in the US, UK and in some other countries. It's why Ed Balls eventually apologised for not regulating financial services properly and a Parliamentary committee investigating the collapse of HBOS were scathing about the FSA and the influence of powerful business leaders had over politicians and regulators. Dare I even mention SIR Fred Goodwin........whatever ever happened to him?

So, now we have established why markets need effective regulation let's look at the UK and EU labour market specifically. As we know, the free movement of people across the EU offers neither the state or the EU any ability to manage its logistical architecture to deal with internal people flows (housing, schools etc.). This is clearly madness as a state that is receiving migration inflows of 600k p.a. like the UK has in recent years cannot effectively plan to manage this dynamic......it's simply impossible.

By sticking with the principle of freedom of movement the EU cannot effectively plan to manage the dynamic either. Predictably the trend seen in recent years is that people from poor EU countries are moving to richer EU countries, and the consequences for these countries (like Greece which has lost 500k of its skilled young people) are equally profound.

However, and this point is key, controlling the UK's labour market does not equate to internal restrictions on UK workers, I have not expressly stated that because that is not what I am advocating..........if anyone genuinely did think I was then I would have expected a come-back before now. No one did so I am happy my point was clear enough.

It is a FACT that the vast majority of international countries do not allow foreigners to reside and work in their countries without visas and therefore control. The same countries do not restrict their citizens movements internally.

So, there it is..........as you are so interested I can knock you up a PPT presentation if you are still struggling with the concept.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Some UK Electricians are already priced out because of people from the EU doing these jobs cheaper, it doesn't work the other way round thou does it. There is one downside to free movement. Its alright for people like Junker and his pals, our own politicians on nice salaries, free movement has zero impact on their jobs, or their ability to find a job. You don't see their jobs shipped out to the lowest bidders, put in the hands of job agencies.

Also for all the standards the EU likes to impose there are absolutely zero standards when it comes to training and quality of work. My brother in law is also an electrician, he said he turns up on some sites and the quality of work is terrible.

Another joke is this CE stamp on products, people now get confused between that and the EU CE standard stamp. CE on some products now mean China Export so we don't know what the **** we are buying anymore, and whether thate item is going to fry when you plug it in.

The list goes on. Glad we voted Leave.

This is a genuine question. Regarding the "terrible" work how is it allowed to happen? Surely someone is in overall charge and wouldn't allow shoddy work through? If poor quality work is repeatedly getting through this indicates a problem, or wilful neglect, in the company and/or their processes as opposed to individual workers?

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So you would be happy for higher prices to the consumer and a cartel so that no electrican loses out on work due to price as they would all be charging the same.

No one would disagree on quality of work thresholds but I thought we lived in a free market country.

I know this wasn't a reply to me but I'd support a minimum wage for electricians, aligned with regular training and quality controls.

 

[cunning fergus]

EU membership has not suppressed wages.

Free movement generates economic growth which creates jobs for the working class.

Yes it has, you are fighting a battle that has already been fought.......and you lost. Get over it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...kers-do-best-when-labour-supply-is-controlled

You are free to continue to argue your Tory narrative though like Ken Clarke, however for the economically sane, we know that on this specific matter you are simply wrong.

 

[cunning fergus]

That independent report on hate crime certainly puts events into realistic context.
I notice since it was compiled investigations by the Police into the death of that poor Polish bloke have gone through process and are concluded, and even though some sections of the media went into an initial frenzy saying it was a hate crime and some on here continue to claim falsely it was(quite recently), the CPS have decided not to prosecute the case as a hate crime.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/01/boy-15-charged-with-killing-of-polish-man-in-harlow.

Must be gutting for those who love to promote hate where it doesn’t exist.

Reminds me of some Tim Booth lyrics

We can cross the race divide
Bridge a gap that wasn't really there

That said Pasta I am comfortable that there was a rise in hate crime after Brexit.

For example the deep seated prejudice that lead to the vile behaviour by labour members attacking each other post 23 June 2016 was dreadful.

It was all there to see, homophobia, ant-semitism, misogyny the full shooting match.........the Police would have had their hands full dealing with that load of bigots for sure........