[Politics] Brexit

[Baldseagull]

Can you provide an example where someone has specifically said you are not allowed to have an opinion or shouts you out?

Uh oh that crystal ball is back. may be poorer etc, might be lower etc. As you know people aren't just saying choppy economic waters lie ahead they are saying the referendum result should be ignored or reversed/diluted. Do you think that view is undemocratic?

I can't think of anyone who said leaving the EU would be straightforward or 100% pain free. Can you define what you mean by unrealistically positive?

Forgive me jumping in, but I would say choppy economic waters is unrealistically positive.

 

[Guinness Boy]

BrExit name calling, point scoring etc.

There is questioning, then there is complete derailment which seems to be what some want. Look at Blair, Farron, Clegg as just three examples. Two of those are Liberal Democrats as you know which is even worse.

But people are free to vote for Farron and Clegg or not. That IS democracy every bit as much as a referendum result. As for Blair don't you get that everyone despises him now? I'm a former Blair-ite and I despise him. Him weighing in was the single most misguided act of a remainer since the vote and did the cause of hard Brexit no harm at all. Don't worry about him, he's an irrelevance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nicko31]

He's merely pointed out, quite correctly, that this has been going on for years, and not just in Britain post Brexit.

#

At some point the Brexiteers have to admit they voted to become poorer

The UK hasn't collapsed since the Brexit, but sterling hasn't recovered at all. So while many liitle islanders are in denial the view of the rest of the world is still very different.

 

[pastafarian]

I like books but I've always avoided Mein Kampf.

It would be a dangerous book again if it was left unchallenged and it was only read by those that agreed with its message.
Thankfully many people don’t avoid it and are capable of reading material they are opposed to.

 

[pastafarian]

Ok, I'm not really down with this shit. This stupidity that not accepting the results of a referendum is somehow "undemocratic" has been trolled out non-stop by leavers ever since the result came in and I've had enough of it. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say something that will have the Brexiters spitting their tea out all over their computer screens........

REFERENDUMS ARE UNDEMOCRATIC

There! Didn't see that one coming did you? How can I possibly argue this load of absolute nonsense then? Well, it's gonna be a long one so bear with me.....

There were a series of absolutely corking referendums in Germany in the 1930s....From that famously "democratic" organisation known as the National Socialist German Workers' Party.....

I liked this one in 1933 about withdrawing from The League of Nations....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1933

And this absolute cracker of a referendum where 38 MILLION people (88% YES) thought it would be a good idea to merge the position of Chancellor and President into one absolute ruler known as "The Fuhrer".....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1934

Check out this one where 98.8% of "the people" thought it would be a good idea to invade the Rhineland and thus violate the Treaty of Versailles....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election_and_referendum,_1936

And let's top off this little series of referendums with this classic (there's actually a pic of the ballot paper here).......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germa...m,_1938#/media/File:Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg

Yay referendums aye? Yay democracy!!!!

Funnily enough after the war in Europe was over Churchill suggested having one of our own about waiting until victory in Japan before breaking the all-party coalition. Clement Attlee was unimpressed with this idea, saying....

“I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and fascism.” (https://capx.co/referendums-are-a-quintessentially-british-institution/)

Ironically the UK didn't feel the need to hold a referendum until 1975....About the UK’s continuing membership of the European Economic Community. Even Mrs Thatch seemed to think that holding a referendum was a wholly "undemocratic" enterprise at the time....

“The late Lord Attlee was right when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues.” (http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/102649)

Interesting that once she was in office she never held a single referendum in those 11 years....

Of course Germany, now a fully democratic country, still remembers it's wartime past (even if most brexiteers don't) and has banned referendums altogether. Hitler made them realise that referendums are dangerous tools that can be used by weak governments to mobilise "the people" into yelling all at once. This creates a thunderclap of noise centered around the "popular opinion" that legitimises their argument and drowns out opposing views. To say it again for the cheap seats...REAL democracy is a system that recognises the right for the losers to still have representation and a voice. This is why we actually run the country via parliamentary democracy, rather than referendums.

Because referendums are undemocratic.

Sort of did see it coming really, you should have stopped though when you correctly identified it yourself as absolute nonsense.
You are not the first on this thread to mention Hitler and referendums in the same sentence and therefore it must equal undemocratic.
Far from spitting out my tea it simply made me want to scratch my head,
Where is all your other evidence from other countries? Pop yourself over to Switzerland and tell that country referendums are undemocratic and dangerous tools…….dont forget to give us some feedback.

 

[pastafarian]

At some point the Brexiteers have to admit they voted to become poorer
.

Nope i didnt vote for that, i voted to Leave the EU.
Voting to become poorer wasnt on the ballot paper and im now informed if it wasnt on the ballot paper it doesnt exist........or something.

 

[Buzzer]

#

At some point the Brexiteers have to admit they voted to become poorer

The UK hasn't collapsed since the Brexit, but sterling hasn't recovered at all. So while many liitle islanders are in denial the view of the rest of the world is still very different.

There are lots of serious heavyweight economic institutions who believe that Sterling was hugely overvalued before Brexit and still overvalued to a certain degree and that a realignment was always on the cards, Brexit was the catalyst in this instance but it could easily have been another factor. This Canadian investment bank for instance still believes it might be overvalued as much as 10%.

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/usd/6175-two-models-say-sterling-is-not-worth-it

The fact that Sterling has remained stable whilst the UK economy continues to grow so strongly both in real terms and relative to other major economies backs up this belief that it was an overdue market realignment rather than an economic collapse. And this also puts paid to your little lie about a vote for Brexit making us poorer. Growth and recession are measured in terms of GDP, not the fluctuations of Sterling on the international currency market (important though it is) and GDP continues to rise.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Sort of did see it coming really, you should have stopped though when you correctly identified it yourself as absolute nonsense.
You are not the first on this thread to mention Hitler and referendums in the same sentence and therefore it must equal undemocratic.
Far from spitting out my tea it simply made me want to scratch my head,
Where is all your other evidence from other countries? Pop yourself over to Switzerland and tell that country referendums are undemocratic and dangerous tools…….dont forget to give us some feedback.

But referendums are part of their system of direct democracy. Most other truly democratic nation states have representative democracy INSTEAD. Mixing the two is mental. Have one or the other. The one exception is if, as part of the representative democratic process Party A says "if we get elected we'll hold a referendum on such and such", which was exactly the case with the EU referendum. It doesn't negate that Hitler used referendums, that Germany now don't have them, that Atlee criticised them and that Thatcher wouldn't use them.

 

[Baldseagull]

It would be a dangerous book again if it was left unchallenged and it was only read by those that agreed with its message.
Thankfully many people don’t avoid it and are capable of reading material they are opposed to.

Have you read it?

 

[Buzzer]

But referendums are part of their system of direct democracy. Most other truly democratic nation states have representative democracy INSTEAD. Mixing the two is mental. Have one or the other. The one exception is if, as part of the representative democratic process Party A says "if we get elected we'll hold a referendum on such and such", which was exactly the case with the EU referendum. It doesn't negate that Hitler used referendums, that Germany now don't have them, that Atlee criticised them and that Thatcher wouldn't use them.

I've got to pick you up on this here. Referenda are a part of most if not all representative democracies and they work well because they are used sparingly. Most EU countries who all have representative democracies have used them for significant EU-led changes but Ireland also had one for same-sex marriages and the UK for proportional representation and so on. It's clear that they are a long-established and politically sound part of our democracy.

What isn't democratic is when a referendum goes the wrong way and the politicians force another one or try to have the result declared null and void, which is clearly the subtext that Remainers hope for when they bleat on about the referendum only being advisory. To claim now, after all the previous referenda that have happened in the UK and throughout the world in representative democracies, that they are all dodgy and shouldn't be part of our political process is frankly, a load of old scollobs.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I've got to pick you up on this here. Referenda are a part of most if not all representative democracies and they work well because they are used sparingly. Most EU countries who all have representative democracies have used them for significant EU-led changes but Ireland also had one for same-sex marriages and the UK for proportional representation and so on. It's clear that they are a long-established and politically sound part of our democracy.

What isn't democratic is when a referendum goes the wrong way and the politicians force another one or try to have the result declared null and void, which is clearly the subtext that Remainers hope for when they bleat on about the referendum only being advisory. To claim now, after all the previous referenda that have happened in the UK and throughout the world in representative democracies are all dodgy and shouldn't be part of our political process is frankly, a load of old scollobs.

I don't have time to go in to the small print of the manifestos of half a dozen parties in European elections but do you know if they just sprang these referendums (referenda? I give up with Latin) on people or if they said "if we get elected we'll hold a referendum on same sex marriage"? Because, if they did, that confirms what I'm saying. In Britain we have not used them since 1975. That's quite a gap. I'd rather my representative governed and, if he did it badly, I got the chance to boot him out in four or five years.

Anyway, as a remainer, I'm not contesting the fact that there should have been an referendum because we were promised it in the manifesto, I'm not saying we shouldn't Brexit because that was clearly the will of the people and I'm not contesting the fact that Blair has come out and said we should rethink is a disaster for the remain side. You shouldn't contest the fact the referendum was advisery because it obviously was.

Anyway, off to the pub. Big game and all that.

 

[Baldseagull]

There are lots of serious heavyweight economic institutions who believe that Sterling was hugely overvalued before Brexit and still overvalued to a certain degree and that a realignment was always on the cards, Brexit was the catalyst in this instance but it could easily have been another factor. This Canadian investment bank for instance still believes it might be overvalued as much as 10%.

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/usd/6175-two-models-say-sterling-is-not-worth-it

The fact that Sterling has remained stable whilst the UK economy continues to grow so strongly both in real terms and relative to other major economies backs up this belief that it was an overdue market realignment rather than an economic collapse. And this also puts paid to your little lie about a vote for Brexit making us poorer. Growth and recession are measured in terms of GDP, not the fluctuations of Sterling on the international currency market (important though it is) and GDP continues to rise.

If GDP is increasing 2% a year in GBP, but the GBP has fallen 20% against the dollar, are we not much poorer in dollar terms, and are going to be worse off still, if your Canadian bank is correct?
I do believe most world trade is priced and done in dollars.
What will this do to the cost of Trident, for example?

 

[pastafarian]

Have you read it?

Yes,and a very boring read it is too.....sleep inducing.
I understand i may not have read the correct translation as there are academics out there who argue some passages have been translated incorrectly and there are differing versions available.
If you want a better book to understand how Germany was sucked in, how they believed themselves to be a socialist workers revolution which ultimately transformed into an authoritarian dictatorship then i would suggest Inside The Third Reich the autobiography of Albert Speer. An inside view of the inner circle madness that should be on everyones reading list.

 

[Buzzer]

I don't have time to go in to the small print of the manifestos of half a dozen parties in European elections but do you know if they just sprang these referendums (referenda? I give up with Latin) on people or if they said "if we get elected we'll hold a referendum on same sex marriage"? Because, if they did, that confirms what I'm saying. In Britain we have not used them since 1975. That's quite a gap. I'd rather my representative governed and, if he did it badly, I got the chance to boot him out in four or five years.

Anyway, as a remainer, I'm not contesting the fact that there should have been an referendum because we were promised it in the manifesto, I'm not saying we shouldn't Brexit because that was clearly the will of the people and I'm not contesting the fact that Blair has come out and said we should rethink is a disaster for the remain side. You shouldn't contest the fact the referendum was advisery because it obviously was.

Anyway, off to the pub. Big game and all that.

You've completely missed the big point I made and that is that most representative democracies have referenda and they do it because it's a legitimate part of the democratic process.

If it's fair that the UK, Malta, Finland, Austria et al joined the EU by referendum and that Denmark and Sweden rejected the adoption of the Euro by referendum and that France and the Dutch had one to ratify the 2005 EU constitution then it's beyond silly to claim that the UK voting to leave the EU by referendum does not a democratically sound basis.

Whether or not the referendum was advisory or not is neither here nor there. We both know it's a less than subtle attempt to get the Houses of Parliament to overturn a result that certain people don't like.

 

[Buzzer]

If GDP is increasing 2% a year in GBP, but the GBP has fallen 20% against the dollar, are we not much poorer in dollar terms, and are going to be worse off still, if your Canadian bank is correct?
I do believe most world trade is priced and done in dollars.
What will this do to the cost of Trident, for example?

Yes, of course we are "dollar poorer" but that always happens when an overvalued currency gets adjusted. It does not make the UK poorer because UK GDP is measured in sterling when calculating growth. It's only translated into dollars when comparing relative sizes of each economy.

 

[Baldseagull]

I've got to pick you up on this here. Referenda are a part of most if not all representative democracies and they work well because they are used sparingly. Most EU countries who all have representative democracies have used them for significant EU-led changes but Ireland also had one for same-sex marriages and the UK for proportional representation and so on. It's clear that they are a long-established and politically sound part of our democracy.

What isn't democratic is when a referendum goes the wrong way and the politicians force another one or try to have the result declared null and void, which is clearly the subtext that Remainers hope for when they bleat on about the referendum only being advisory. To claim now, after all the previous referenda that have happened in the UK and throughout the world in representative democracies, that they are all dodgy and shouldn't be part of our political process is frankly, a load of old scollobs.

Same sex Marriage is not a particularly complex issue, and is quite suitable for a referendum. I believe Brexit, as a much more complex issue with huge ramifications for everyone in this country, for all of Europe and to an extent, the world, is much less suited to one binary referendum.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

It would be a dangerous book again if it was left unchallenged and it was only read by those that agreed with its message.
Thankfully many people don’t avoid it and are capable of reading material they are opposed to.

Your use of the word 'capable' was characteristic - I am perfectly capable of reading Express stories about the migrant terror but I choose not to. If I want to know about the Brexit case I'll read Gove in the Times or Moore in the Telegraph. Which I do. Staring at repetitive rants about migrants and foreigners is of little value to anyone.

 

[Buzzer]

Same sex Marriage is not a particularly complex issue, and is quite suitable for a referendum. I believe Brexit, as a much more complex issue with huge ramifications for everyone in this country, for all of Europe and to an extent, the world, is much less suited to one binary referendum.

Leaving the EU is no more a big deal for the UK than joining the EU was for all those countries that joined by virtue of referenda and it's no more a big deal than joining a single pan-national currency and tying in your interest rates and banking arrangements with other disparate economies which Norway and Sweden decided against by referenda. I've never ever ONCE heard anyone say that these countries should not have had these referenda on the EU because it's all too complex. And furthermore, if the vote had been to Remain then I know you would not be trying to claim this frankly absurd and illogical position.

Just be honest. You wouldn't give the idea of referenda in a representative democracy even a shadow of doubt if the vote had gone Remain.

 

[Baldseagull]

Yes, of course we are "dollar poorer" but that always happens when an overvalued currency gets adjusted. It does not make the UK poorer because UK GDP is measured in sterling when calculating growth. It's only translated into dollars when comparing relative sizes of each economy.

It will translate into dollars when we import anything, including Trident.

 

[Two Professors]

Coo-I've been using referenda for ages and I am completely wrong!: