[Politics] Brexit

[GT49er]

Ok, I'm not really down with this shit. This stupidity that not accepting the results of a referendum is somehow "undemocratic" has been trolled out non-stop by leavers ever since the result came in and I've had enough of it. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say something that will have the Brexiters spitting their tea out all over their computer screens........

REFERENDUMS ARE UNDEMOCRATIC

There! Didn't see that one coming did you? How can I possibly argue this load of absolute nonsense then? Well, it's gonna be a long one so bear with me.....

There were a series of absolutely corking referendums in Germany in the 1930s....From that famously "democratic" organisation known as the National Socialist German Workers' Party.....

I liked this one in 1933 about withdrawing from The League of Nations....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1933

And this absolute cracker of a referendum where 38 MILLION people (88% YES) thought it would be a good idea to merge the position of Chancellor and President into one absolute ruler known as "The Fuhrer".....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_referendum,_1934

Check out this one where 98.8% of "the people" thought it would be a good idea to invade the Rhineland and thus violate the Treaty of Versailles....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_election_and_referendum,_1936

And let's top off this little series of referendums with this classic (there's actually a pic of the ballot paper here).......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germa...m,_1938#/media/File:Stimmzettel-Anschluss.jpg

Yay referendums aye? Yay democracy!!!!

Funnily enough after the war in Europe was over Churchill suggested having one of our own about waiting until victory in Japan before breaking the all-party coalition. Clement Attlee was unimpressed with this idea, saying....

“I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and fascism.” (https://capx.co/referendums-are-a-quintessentially-british-institution/)

Ironically the UK didn't feel the need to hold a referendum until 1975....About the UK’s continuing membership of the European Economic Community. Even Mrs Thatch seemed to think that holding a referendum was a wholly "undemocratic" enterprise at the time....

“The late Lord Attlee was right when he said that the referendum was a device of dictators and demagogues.” (http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/102649)

Interesting that once she was in office she never held a single referendum in those 11 years....

Of course Germany, now a fully democratic country, still remembers it's wartime past (even if most brexiteers don't) and has banned referendums altogether. Hitler made them realise that referendums are dangerous tools that can be used by weak governments to mobilise "the people" into yelling all at once. This creates a thunderclap of noise centered around the "popular opinion" that legitimises their argument and drowns out opposing views. To say it again for the cheap seats...REAL democracy is a system that recognises the right for the losers to still have representation and a voice. This is why we actually run the country via parliamentary democracy, rather than referendums.

Because referendums are undemocratic.

What a load of tosh! Using specifics (referendums held in Nazi Germany) to attempt to 'prove' a general point. Doesn't work - that sort of argument can be falsely used to attack/defend anything.

Try this: Elections in North Korea:-
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/north-koreas-kim-jong-un-elected-assembly-vote-against

Elections in Zimbabwe:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_general_election,_2013#Accusations_of_unfairness

There you go, sunshine - conclusive 'proof' that

ELECTIONS ARE UNDEMOCRATIC

Easy game, this politicking, ain't it.

 

[Deleted member 22389]

You suggest that there is an optimal number of books to have read before weakening levels of knowledge and empathy kick in…..if you can spell Amritsar you have definitely read too many.

As for weak liberals; my Dad was a lifelong liberal-leftie but served with distinction at Cassino and let’s consider those armchair warriors from the International Brigades in the 1930s. How about my friend (real friend, not Nuttall-type friend) who was on the top floor of the Tavistock Square bus and helped her fellow survivors on the day and in the months after. She saw scenes of unimaginable horror but today campaigns for tolerance and greater understanding between communities as she believes that this is the best way to prevent such horrors in the future. People are motivated by different things but courage takes many forms and it is rather different from getting tanked up and urinating in a Belgian fountain or marching down the streets of Luton with a Union Jack.

I saw enough to tell me things where going wrong in Luton, but marching down Bury Park with a union jack is not the solution, that just makes the situation worse, it ends up this way because of the complete ignorance of our own politicians and shouting people down for expressing concerns in the first place.

 

[Mental Lental]

What a load of tosh! Using specifics (referendums held in Nazi Germany) to attempt to 'prove' a general point. Doesn't work - that sort of argument can be falsely used to attack/defend anything.

Try this: Elections in North Korea:-
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/north-koreas-kim-jong-un-elected-assembly-vote-against

Elections in Zimbabwe:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwean_general_election,_2013#Accusations_of_unfairness

There you go, sunshine - conclusive 'proof' that

ELECTIONS ARE UNDEMOCRATIC

Easy game, this politicking, ain't it.

Aaah you're trying to claim that those Nazi referendums weren't real referendums because the voters were marched into the polling booths at gun point to vote the right way. Just like in those other regimes. Read your history. Both the 1933 and 34 one (the big one) were a result of Hitler's convincing rhetoric and mass propaganda. They were very much decisions made of their own free will. I'll concede that after he became Fuhrer, the later ones had an element of being marched to the poll booth. You only have to see the ridiculous margins of victory to see that. (99.8%!!
)

 

[Raleigh Chopper]

Oh goody, more cuts.
So on the one hand everything is going to be just fine but on the other we need to cut more for when Brexit hits our economy.
Tories cutting yet again for fun or do they have absolutely no clue whatsoever about what is going to happen.
I see foreign aid is ring fenced, that should get a few Brexiteers fuming.
But we can only make these extra cuts because "we have a strong economy"
When are people going to wake up and realise that this was a massive mistake and the last thing this country needs when there is so much to sort out, but it's all about Brexit.

 

[wellquickwoody]

Are we talking about the size of Mars Bars? Dammit, I just thought my willy was getting bigger as I grew older.

Apparently a 'Sky Remote' is the unit of measurement these days

 

[wellquickwoody]

He's merely pointed out, quite correctly, that this has been going on for years, and not just in Britain post Brexit.

Happening at a faster rate right now though according to a BBC article last week.

 

[smeg]

Apparently a 'Sky Remote' is the unit of measurement these days

hahaha

 

[studio150]

What other methods could have been used if not a referendum? People where deeply unhappy with the EU. Are people just meant to put up and shut up. Something had to change, because was clear the EU wasn't.

How about electing a Government where their main promise when canvassing was to take the UK out of the EU. This must tick so many boxes for you, using the democratic process of the country, the people's views are acted upon as they have voted the Government in, and also subject to to debate and a vote in both Houses.

 

[JCL666]

Completely disagree as I find the liberal left "anti British" and many of them are students with little or no experience in life and of whom have read to many books on our history and put 2 and 2 together.

You can bet your right bollock that if this country went to war and huge call ups were required the liberals would run and hide like little babies as that's what they're.....weak people scared of change !!!!

Utterly bizarre post

 

[portslade seagull]

Happening at a faster rate right now though according to a BBC article last week.

firms do like to make a profit. This was going on well before Brexit. Curly Wurly's used to be massive now they are little toffee bars

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If you see someone about to drill a hole in a boat to let the water out, do you think you should give their idea a chance, or try and make them see sense?

Sense as in listening to the people who told us the boat should have already gone over the waterfall and crashed into the rocks?

The referendum result suggests that a majority of people were willing to put up with choppy economic waters so we could have a firmer grip of the rudder and a bigger say on who climbs in our boat.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

What is it with some Remain diehards that they have to play the victim card all the time.

...and the rather more regular outbursts from Leavers that nasty people keep calling them thickos and racists? Where do they fit in?

Personally I could never feel remotely a victim when charged of anything by the likes of Pretty Pink Fairy and his fellow name-callers. I suppose it does their fractured egos a boost to pretend that we do.

 

[Guinness Boy]

What other methods could have been used if not a referendum? People where deeply unhappy with the EU. Are people just meant to put up and shut up. Something had to change, because was clear the EU wasn't.

Referendums are mostly undemocratic and have been used by dictators as the poster you quoted quite rightly pointed out. You have had the option open to you for over 20 years to vote for a single issue party that would have taken us out of Europe. There clearly wasn't enough support for UKIP as a single issue party. Proper democracy is leaning on your local MP to represent your point of view on a whole range of issues and for the party put in charge of the country to carry out those wishes.

The slight difference here - and I say this as a remainer - is that the winning party in the last GE promised an EU referendum as part of their manifesto, so you'd be right to say this one was born out of the democratic general election process.

That does not mean that the result is not open to question and dissent. That's how civilised society works. "Popularists" around the globe are currently trying to shut down free speech in the name of democracy which is as ironic and as stupid as you can get.


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[JC Footy Genius]

This is just getting tedious yet again not accepting the referendum result gets shouted out, together with the second favourite that being realistic and voicing concerns that we will be poorer and worse off for some considerable length of time is not acceptable or to use your words have a strange sort of patriotism.

It is not saying that the UK is incapable of prospering outside of the EU, just that the degree of economic growth and wealth will be lower for a period of time than what it would have been by staying within the EU.

I just don;t get why the level of patriotism has to be linked to unrealistic positive predictions.

Can you provide an example where someone has specifically said you are not allowed to have an opinion or shouts you out?

Uh oh that crystal ball is back. may be poorer etc, might be lower etc. As you know people aren't just saying choppy economic waters lie ahead they are saying the referendum result should be ignored or reversed/diluted. Do you think that view is undemocratic?

I can't think of anyone who said leaving the EU would be straightforward or 100% pain free. Can you define what you mean by unrealistically positive?

 

[Guinness Boy]

I can't believe I typed that out on my phone. Hurry up football o'clock.


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[Blue3]

The butter we buy has gone from 0.90p to £1.09 in the last month that's a 21% increase

 

[Deleted member 22389]

The butter we buy has gone from 0.90p to £1.09 in the last month that's a 21% increase

Could this be the reason
http://m.bakeryinfo.co.uk/news/fullstory.php/aid/16132/Butter_prices_up_13_25.html

 

[JC Footy Genius]

...and the rather more regular outbursts from Leavers that nasty people keep calling them thickos and racists? Where do they fit in?

Personally I could never feel remotely a victim when charged of anything by the likes of Pretty Pink Fairy and his fellow name-callers. I suppose it does their fractured egos a boost to pretend that we do.

For clarity, I wasn't referring to your occasional swooning sessions more this ongoing shroud waving where the 'debate' is supposedly being curtailed ... how long has this thread been going now!

 

[Deleted member 22389]

Referendums are mostly undemocratic and have been used by dictators as the poster you quoted quite rightly pointed out. You have had the option open to you for over 20 years to vote for a single issue party that would have taken us out of Europe. There clearly wasn't enough support for UKIP as a single issue party. Proper democracy is leaning on your local MP to represent your point of view on a whole range of issues and for the party put in charge of the country to carry out those wishes.

The slight difference here - and I say this as a remainer - is that the winning party in the last GE promised an EU referendum as part of their manifesto, so you'd be right to say this one was born out of the democratic general election process.

That does not mean that the result is not open to question and dissent. That's how civilised society works. "Popularists" around the globe are currently trying to shut down free speech in the name of democracy which is as ironic and as stupid as you can get.


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There is questioning, then there is complete derailment which seems to be what some want. Look at Blair, Farron, Clegg as just three examples. Two of those are Liberal Democrats as you know which is even worse.

 

[Baldseagull]

Sense as in listening to the people who told us the boat should have already gone over the waterfall and crashed into the rocks?

The referendum result suggests that a majority of people were willing to put up with choppy economic waters so we could have a firmer grip of the rudder and a bigger say on who climbs in our boat.

There was an expectation from me and others that once the plan to drill the hole was given the go ahead, most people would start donning the lifejackets. However, it seems most are happy to carry on as normal, at least until the hole is started, perhaps many will wait till the hole is finished. We will see how happy they are with the plan once they can see that the water keeps rising.