[Politics] Brexit

[cunning fergus]

Sigh. Open boarders is, fundamentally, and morally a good thing. You can not deny that. Why should anyone be restricted as to where they live and work by some random line on a map? We should, and need, to be able to freely move wherever we wish as part of our basic human rights.

That is your opinion, and therefore I can deny that it is neither fundamentally or morally a good thing.

I have yet to hear any mainstream UK politician advocate completely open borders for anyone to move to the UK, as a policy it would appear to be the domain of a very small but active minority.

I dare say there are some UK politicians that would like to open up the UK to anyone that would care to come here but they know it would be political suicide.

That is the extent of your delusion..........and even in your beloved EU the likelihood is that freedom of movement will change due to the demands of national electorates.

Get over it.

 

[The Clamp]

Its not a state secret, I don’t require inside knowledge.
You could simply look at that historic day in jan 2013 when Cameron gave that speech and announced the intention to have a referendum. He was fully aware about the public mood and anger over Europe but more importantly (concerning your claim) he references the public hunger to have a say on the matter

“there is a growing frustration that the EU is seen as something that is done to people rather than acting on their behalf.”

“People are increasingly frustrated ”

“And yes, of course, we are seeing this frustration with the EU very dramatically in Britain”

“Today, public disillusionment with the EU is at an all time high”

“People feel that the EU is heading in a direction that they never signed up to”

“They see Treaty after Treaty changing the balance between Member States and the EU. And note they were never given a say.”

“They’ve had referendums promised - but not delivered”.

“The result is that democratic consent for the EU in Britain is now wafer thin”

“the question mark is already there and ignoring it won’t make it go away”.


These are just a few snippets from the full speech.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/9820230/David-Camerons-EU-speech-in-full.html

To claim that the public mood for a vote played NO part in the decision process to have one is daft beyond ridiculous, especially when he says he knows we want a say. Its even madder to claim he didnt know we wanted a referendum.........that claim is out there bonkers.

Unfortunately for your argument to butter the parsnips, one has to make the assumption DC actually believed hat he was saying. I don't think he did. I think plain logic has you baffled.

 

[cunning fergus]

Yes, I am afraid you are missing something. Having referenced the stats, walked the streets, googled the background and spent a day in the company of a thoughtful man who has spent all of his 70+ years involved in the community, I hazarded the view that immigration was not a pressing issue in the town. It wasn't an expert view but perhaps it was an informed one. It attracted a comment from one of your fellow Brexiters that I was deluded, stupid and inexperienced at living in places with a large proportion of what he described as Commonwealth immigrants.

It was simply in response to the implication that Barnsley might well have a large ethnic minority population that I replied that Barnsley, according to the figures, actually has an unusually high proportion of 'White British' residents. This attracted three responses from Brexiters; I had got the figures wrong, I was a dunce and I was indulging in 'fake facts'. I didn't respond in kind and simply quoted my source. One poster apologised, which was unexpected.

Having established (I hope) the fact that immigration is not a pressing issue in Barnsley, we now arrive at the question you ask. "Given that it isn't a problem, what evidence is there that it wasn't a factor in people voting as they did?" I could of course ask you the slightly simpler question of why you think it was a factor. I don't think I can come up with much to answer your question at this very moment. There is the view of my local contact, there is the (slightly sad) truth that people tend not to be greatly exercised by problems in other parts of the country and, on the other side, there is the fact that blistering populist campaigns, drawing as always on a anti-outsider sentiments, are proving successful across much of the world.

I think that what happened in the UK was at heart no different to what is happening in the US, France, Holland and elsewhere. I believe you think it is completely different. There you go.

Weird post, in the first paragraph you indicate you were "hazarding a guess" on whether immigration was an issue why Barnsley voted leave, then by the third paragraph you have established as a fact that it wasn't?

Let me break it to you don't know.

At best you have a theory, but that is all..........no more no less, and by all statistical likelihood you are way off the mark.

 

[cunning fergus]

The money we have paid in to the EU has been good value for us, we have not surrendered border controls, and law that we adopt as part of the EU, we are part of creating. I hope Brexit is a fair deal, I believe that it will be, but it won't satisfy the majority of people in the UK, if we ever get to a deal that is.

That's your opinion, I consider handing billions of taxpayers money to a group of unelected technocrats to be a long way from a good deal. As a net contributor to the EU it is laughable to hear the refrain of how the UK benefits from "free trade".

It's like people saying the NHS is free.......it's not like the EU it costs UK taxpayers billions of pounds.

Of course we surrendered controls on our borders, it's simply absurd to argue otherwise.

 

[cunning fergus]

It is not something to get over. It is something that should be a basic human right.
Open boarders will not work at present due to the huge inequalities in the world. We need to fix that as well. Then open boarders will not result in mass migrations. Closing off boarders as brexit does and like Trump is doing is treating a symptom not solving the problem.

Once you have convinced your mum and dad to take the locks off the doors of their house then you can come back on this thread with this my little pony bullshit.

You may want to buy the world a coke but the fact is that someone needs to pay for it..........when you are picking up the bill you will realise why policies like open borders is so unpopular.

So yes, get over it.

 

[pastafarian]

Unfortunately for your argument to butter the parsnips, one has to make the assumption DC actually believed hat he was saying. I don't think he did. I think plain logic has you baffled.

And your messed up logic claims Cameron didn’t think the public wanted a referendum. Even though the majority did.
What sort of crackers world is it when you believe a Prime Minister doesn’t look at polls or read a newspaper or watch the news.
That is a bonkers opinion you have formulated in your own head.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

Weird post, in the first paragraph you indicate you were "hazarding a guess" on whether immigration was an issue why Barnsley voted leave, then by the third paragraph you have established as a fact that it wasn't?

Let me break it to you don't know.

At best you have a theory, but that is all..........no more no less, and by all statistical likelihood you are way off the mark.

Again you employ your standard technique of zooming in on a single phrase, taking it out of proportion and adding a heavy dose of patronising condescension. 'Hazarding a guess' is common English usage, particularly among people who don't choose to claim absolute certainty about everything they say. No, I cannot be absolutely certain but as I also say, my opinion is perhaps an informed one. To the best of my knowledge, and for the reasons I gave, I think it is right.

Now, you tell me why it is wrong: tell me exactly what "...by all statistical likelihood you are way of the mark" actually means.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

It is not something to get over. It is something that should be a basic human right.
Open boarders will not work at present due to the huge inequalities in the world. We need to fix that as well. Then open boarders will not result in mass migrations. Closing off boarders as brexit does and like Trump is doing is treating a symptom not solving the problem.

Solving the inequality of the world is a pretty formidable barrier. As to a 'human right' isn't 'human responsibility ' more important ? I think society more important than individualism. Generations have built our society and it seems ever since Margaret Thatcher declared the end of society all we have heard about is individual rights.

 

[Lincoln Imp]

So we are in agreement then.
Public opinion did play a part in the decision to have a referendum and Cameron played the worst political ball game of his career.

who would have thought it

Yes, it is nice to agree but surely public opinion plays a part, large or small, in every political decision? I don't believe it was the main reason behind Cameron calling the referendum though.

 

[Soulman]

Seems the twisting has taken a different course. Not content in trying to twist hy people voted out, now we have the twisting of the reasons Cameron had a referendum.
Shall we do the full twist and pretend that Cameron never called a referendum, there was no majority vote, we are still in the EU......hurrah.

 

[The Clamp]

And your messed up logic claims Cameron didn’t think the public wanted a referendum. Even though the majority did.
What sort of crackers world is it when you believe a Prime Minister doesn’t look at polls or read a newspaper or watch the news.
That is a bonkers opinion you have formulated in your own head.

The result shows us he didn't think the majority of people wanted a referendum. If he believed the UK was so hacked off with the EU that we wanted to leave, we wouldn't have had a referendum. You can keep on repeating yourself and attempting to trash my argument from now until tomorrow, the facts remain and logic falls on my argument, not yours. I believe you have said yourself it was a huge gamble and he never expected to lose.

 

[cunning fergus]

Again you employ your standard technique of zooming in on a single phrase, taking it out of proportion and adding a heavy dose of patronising condescension. 'Hazarding a guess' is common English usage, particularly among people who don't choose to claim absolute certainty about everything they say. No, I cannot be absolutely certain but as I also say, my opinion is perhaps an informed one. To the best of my knowledge, and for the reasons I gave, I think it is right.

Now, you tell me why it is wrong: tell me exactly what "...by all statistical likelihood you are way of the mark" actually means.

You are guessing that immigration played no part in why Barnsley voted for Brexit, and previously you referenced the high proportion of white British people in Barnsley to substantiate your guess.

You may think you are informed but you cannot know the voting intentions of 100,000 people.........and that is why you are way off the mark.

I'm surprised you need it spelt out but you live and learn.

 

[pastafarian]

Yes, it is nice to agree but surely public opinion plays a part, large or small, in every political decision? I don't believe it was the main reason behind Cameron calling the referendum though.

And i agree with you again,wonders never cease, it wasnt the main reason.
It played a part along with fighting off UKIP and fighting off his own euro sceptics within the party.
and yes public opinion always plays a part in political decisions,to believe a PM is not aware of public opinion is very odd. (not your belief)

The claim( not made by you) that the referendum only came about because of tory in fighting is a false one

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yes, I agree society is important. That is why I believe we should be able to move around as we like. Why shun one section of society and not another? Why is it ok to say the UK section of society will just look after itself and screw the rest of society?

I'm not sure I would put it that way. To build a strong community you need a basic level of shared identity and common interest in the future. I certainly saw this living in Asia and Europe. This does not preclude inviting people to join that society but the identity on which community was created is not negotiable. My presence was by work permit and because I had skills that were deemed desirable.This is very different from the US/UK free market in everything including business and the migration that feeds it. Rights over obligations is very much a US/UK agenda. I don't think we have a human right to live where we like and have another society pay the bill. We have an obligation to contribute to society.

 

[portslade seagull]

The result shows us he didn't think the majority of people wanted a referendum. If he believed the UK was so hacked off with the EU that we wanted to leave, we wouldn't have had a referendum. You can keep on repeating yourself and attempting to trash my argument from now until tomorrow, the facts remain and logic falls on my argument, not yours. I believe you have said yourself it was a huge gamble and he never expected to lose.

Have to say I agree with you on this one. Cameron went for the vote because he believed it was a forgone conclusion for us to stay in the EU. If he thought there was a chance of losing the vote would not have gone ahead.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The result shows us he didn't think the majority of people wanted a referendum. If he believed the UK was so hacked off with the EU that we wanted to leave, we wouldn't have had a referendum. You can keep on repeating yourself and attempting to trash my argument from now until tomorrow, the facts remain and logic falls on my argument, not yours. I believe you have said yourself it was a huge gamble and he never expected to lose.

I'm not sure I understand your logic. How can the result tell us anything about Cameron's reasons for holding the referendum ?

 

[pastafarian]

The result shows us he didn't think the majority of people wanted a referendum. If he believed the UK was so hacked off with the EU that we wanted to leave, we wouldn't have had a referendum. You can keep on repeating yourself and attempting to trash my argument from now until tomorrow, the facts remain and logic falls on my argument, not yours. I believe you have said yourself it was a huge gamble and he never expected to lose.

You are all over the shop.
The result does NOT show that Cameron didnt think we even wanted a referendum at all, this is crackers.
Opinion poll after opinion poll after opinion poll would have informed Cameron that a large majority favoured holding a referendum and sorting the question out once and for all.
Opinion poll after opinion poll along with thinking from advisers would have informed Cameron that Remain would probably have won but it would be tight.
All the result shows us is he played his political cards all wrong.

 

[The Clamp]

I'm not sure I understand your logic. How can the result tell us anything about Cameron's reasons for holding the referendum ?

Sorry I meant to edit that. Doesn't make much sense. What I tried and failed to explain was Cameron was out of touch and the result was an indication of just how far out of touch he was.

 

[The Clamp]

You are all over the shop.
The result does NOT show that Cameron didnt think we even wanted a referendum at all, this is crackers.
Opinion poll after opinion poll after opinion poll would have informed Cameron that a large majority favoured holding a referendum and sorting the question out once and for all.
Opinion poll after opinion poll along with thinking from advisers would have informed Cameron that Remain would probably have won but it would be tight.
All the result shows us is he played his political cards all wrong.

You do like to contradict yourself, eh! Like I said, repeating yourself won't make your argument any stronger. You insist he knew what the people wanted through opinion polls. He didn't want out. He would not have held the referendum if he thought we;d leave. We voted to leave. Therefore it stands to reason he was out of touch with opinion.

Simply put: You stated he understood popular opinion. He clearly didn't did he!

You practically said it yourself in your last sentence.

Come back when you've been reunited with your senses. Debating anything with you is like chewing concrete, you are a very stubborn individual. I don't think I shall bother with you anymore. Tedious.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Sorry I meant to edit that. Doesn't make much sense. What I tried and failed to explain was Cameron was out of touch and the result was an indication of just how far out of touch he was.

Understood. I completely agree.