[Politics] Brexit

[pastafarian]

But you are the one that pissed their pants and ran off crying to their safe space with a referendum instead of being a grown up and facing the issue and campaigning and changing the inadequacies of the system.

Indeed and it should be looked at and optimised. But that is no reason for all the Brexit snowflakes to piss themselves and go running home crying as it is not as fair as they like.
I thought we were supposed to be a nation that stood up for itself and fights for what is right? Not one that surrenders and runs off if things are not to its liking. Oh well, times change.

Im fairly certain you havnt really got to grips with this whole snowflake/safe space thing yet,arse about face springs to mind.

But thanks for calling [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] a snowflake who needs a safe space though, this has certainly made my day.
Poor bloke will be choking on his gin and tonic when he reads that.

 

[GT49er]

Im fairly certain you havnt really got to grips with this whole snowflake/safe space thing yet,arse about face springs to mind.

 

[Hamilton]

Let's hope The Lords do the job that our elected MPs failed to do in Parliament.

 

[Soulman]

Im fairly certain you havnt really got to grips with this whole snowflake/safe space thing yet,arse about face springs to mind.

But thanks for calling [MENTION=12825]cunning fergus[/MENTION] a snowflake who needs a safe space though, this has certainly made my day.
Poor bloke will be choking on his gin and tonic when he reads that.

He must have been on a wind up or on the bevvy.

 

[GT49er]

Let's hope The Lords do the job that our elected MPs failed to do in Parliament.

Typical. Desperate remainer wants undemocratic organisation to overturn the democratic result of a referendum. With that mind-set, dertermined not to let what the people want get in the way, what else could he/she be but out and out pro EU?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

A possibility more likely in a divided Europe.

Agreed, let's hope politicians across the continent respect and represent the views
of their voters. On that I think we can agree.

 

[Baldseagull]

Oh no we aren't going to war are we

Some of your guys were suggesting a civil war if Parliament blocked Brexit, but no, Europeans just don't do that to each other do they, it is not as if there are some tricky negotiations coming up that could create any resentment between nations, or far right politics and nationalism rising in popularity around the continent.
I am not suggesting war is imminent, but will any of you say it is less likely in a fractured Europe? That we are less likely to see a war in Europe if the EU collapses?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

There's a reason that Westminster is called the Mother of Parliaments and I greatly admire aspects of the British parliamentary system but have serious doubts about the arrangements for electing people to serve in it. It is difficult to defend an arrangement which means it takes many times more people to elect, say, a UKIP MP than a Conservative or Labour one. People who do so defend it seem either to have an aura of expediency about them (the system favours the party they happen to support) or they have fallen into the trap of thinking that everything about the UK is better than everything about everywhere else. It does us no favours.

Regarding imitation, our FPTP voting system - which is what we are talking about - is not so heavily imitated these days. Some big-population countries - the USA and India - have it but most that do are much smaller than the UK. And a number have abandoned it. I wish we would.

It's a tough one. Theoretically I can't fault your argument but our system does contain a built in defense against extremism. The BNP, National Front and SWP find it difficult to make any headway because FPTP requires that a majority of a community supports them rather than the sum of their supporters nationwide. That way strong local communities can hold back the kind of damaging politics currently on the rise in PR systems like continental Europe.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

No. I think it fits the description. The brexiteers are afraid and scared of europe and instead of fighting to change it they are running off into a safe space outside europe.

So presumably you would apply the same analysis to the 1975 decision to confirm EU membership ? Just in the interests of logical analysis.

 

[Billy the Fish]

No. I think it fits the description. The brexiteers are afraid and scared of europe and instead of fighting to change it they are running off into a safe space outside europe.

Please explain how you think an individual should fight to change the structure of the EU?

People have been using the only weapon in their arsenal which is the vote. We've voted for eurosceptic MEPs and voted to leave when asked the question.

 

[Hamilton]

Typical. Desperate remainer wants undemocratic organisation to overturn the democratic result of a referendum. With that mind-set, dertermined not to let what the people want get in the way, what else could he/she be but out and out pro EU?

You fail to understand the role of parliament. Nor do you take into account the objectives of the referendum, which was not to deliver a guiding decision for our parliamentarians. The referendum should lead our MPs to see that the electorate is unconvinced by the perceived value of the EU and therefore believes that under current arrangements, we should leave.

That does not mean that this is the course of action that our government or parliamentarians need to take. There are other options. The most sane would be to return to the EU and say that as far as the UK electorate is concerned the EU needs reform and that reform should be forthcoming. What's not advisable is to throw the baby out with the bathwater at the first possible opportunity - which is what our unelected Prime minister is seeking to do.

 

[Murray 17]

...instead of fighting to change it they are running off into a safe space outside europe.

I thought David Cameron tried to change aspects of the EU? Couldn't even get the 'emergency handbrake' through.

You can't change something that doesn't want to be changed.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Yes. I am sure there were plenty of snowflakes even back then who were afraid of entering the big wide world and wanted to just stay in their little one country safe space.

I thinks you have missed my point. No worries.

 

[nicko31]

On a lighter note, tonight channel 4 Dispatches tonight.....

http://www.channel4.com/info/press/...-and-your-shrinking-shop-channel-4-dispatches

Right, off to the allotment to plant turnips

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You fail to understand the role of parliament. Nor do you take into account the objectives of the referendum, which was not to deliver a guiding decision for our parliamentarians. The referendum should lead our MPs to see that the electorate is unconvinced by the perceived value of the EU and therefore believes that under current arrangements, we should leave.

That does not mean that this is the course of action that our government or parliamentarians need to take. There are other options. The most sane would be to return to the EU and say that as far as the UK electorate is concerned the EU needs reform and that reform should be forthcoming. What's not advisable is to throw the baby out with the bathwater at the first possible opportunity - which is what our unelected Prime minister is seeking to do.

Seems odd that this logic was not applied after the 1975 Referendum.

 

[Hamilton]

Seems odd that this logic was not applied after the 1975 Referendum.

Actually it was in a way. In fact, parliamentarians had taken us into the European Economic Community (then known as Common Market) before the referendum in 1975. Our MPs voted us in because they felt it best for the country. This was against a backdrop of opposition to the EC (CM) at the time.

The vote in 1975 merely ratified a decision parliament had already taken.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Actually it was in a way. In fact, parliamentarians had taken us into the European Economic Community (then known as Common Market) before the referendum in 1975. Our MPs voted us in because they felt it best for the country. This was against a backdrop of opposition to the EC (CM) at the time.

The vote in 1975 merely ratified a decision parliament had already taken.

Yes, you are referring to the decision by Tory grandees and their business backers to take us into the EU without asking the people. It took the election of a Labour Government for ordinary people to have a say in how we were governed. The subsequent result of the Referendum was respected and its results were not deemed one option amongst many.

 

[Hamilton]

Yes, you are referring to the decision by Tory grandees and their business backers to take us into the EU without asking the people. It took the election of a Labour Government for ordinary people to have a say in how we were governed. The subsequent result of the Referendum was respected and its results were not deemed one option amongst many.

No, I'm referring to the 1972 vote in parliament. That was not a decision by Tory grandees, it was a vote by parliamentarians. That is why we elect them. Their view then, and we hold them to account to review all the complexities in law, politics, economics and legislation, was that the nation would be better served in the long run by being in the Common Market.

Now, as an electorate, we are saying that we do not believe the current status quo is in our interests. As an electorate we may be right, we may be wrong. Parliamentarians are there to make the difficult decisions on our behalf. That is the point of representative democracy. It's not just about holding a referendum and then blindly signing article 50.


Sent from my iPhone in a non-Calde world :-(

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Yes, you are referring to the decision by Tory grandees and their business backers to take us into the EU without asking the people. It took the election of a Labour Government for ordinary people to have a say in how we were governed. The subsequent result of the Referendum was respected and its results were not deemed one option amongst many.

The result of the 1975 referendum was somewhat more decisive.

 

[pastafarian]

That does not mean that this is the course of action that our government or parliamentarians need to take. There are other options. The most sane would be to return to the EU and say that as far as the UK electorate is concerned the EU needs reform and that reform should be forthcoming. What's not advisable is to throw the baby out with the bathwater at the first possible opportunity - which is what our unelected Prime minister is seeking to do.

That would mean returning to The EU and telling them a lie though.
The UK electorate did not say the EU needs reform.

The truth is .....as far as the UK electorate is concerned we said OUT